Tracy writes:
[blah]

Read the rest of what I wrote here. Get down off your own elitist horse
for a moment.

--
Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal
that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they
ought to be.

In message , Tracy
writes
Your being intolerant in an elitest sort of way.

These people are causing you no harm. They are fishing. I see far
more people fishing than I see kayaking. I usually find them to be
very friendly and happy people. I have had interesting conversations
pertaining to the location of alligators, snakes, fish, birds and other
wildlife. We are in the outdoors together, lets not be kayak snobs.

You think your sport is better than their's?

Ask yourself this, what happens when fisherman no longer tolerate
kayaking? Remember there are more fisherman than kayakers.
Welcome to the UK
What happens when homeowners decided they no longer can tolerate silent
spying kayakers peering into their backyards?
Welcome to the UK

What happens when environmentalists become concerned that you may
disturb nesting birds? I actually heard an "environmentalist" state
that kayaks disturb birds because she saw a bird fly as a kayak
approached. She seemed to imply that disturbance equalled harm. I told
her how I spotted a bird at 100x through my C-5 get disturbed by a
gentle breeze and if she was in favor of banning wind. I never got an
answer.

What happens when the state becomes concerned that too many kayakers
are drowing on certain sections of rivers, so no selfish kayakers can
kayak anywhere on the river?
Has been tried over here in Europe.
What happens when hunters decide to buy land and deny access to it
because they are denied access to public land?
Don't have hunters in England really just a bunch of eejits running
around dressed in pink on horses chasing foxes for fun.
What happens when environmentalist decide to buy land and deny access
to it because they cannot have their way with public land?

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Yup that is the problem in the UK

Your rights stop where my freedom begins. And Vice Versa.
I know its hard sometimes. I hate Jet Ski's and Cigarette boats. They
have their places, we have ours. Leave them alone. Besides, one day I
may try one out for a couple of hours.

We have the situation here where a fishing club denied permission for
the three annual organised tours to pass through their fishing rights.
These tours have been going on for over thirty years under one name or
another. The fishing club has about 50 members. The tours bring on
average 500 paddlers to the valley. Llangollen the town where most of
the paddlers base themselves estimated the loss to the local economy to
be around 20,000 pounds (not far off 38,000usd oh we do like your well
run economy over here in the UK). I feel this is on the low side but
they calculated the sum and did not include purchases that were not of a
"direct benefit" e.g.. petrol purchases. The paddlers are boycotting
Corwen the offending town.



Professional Target wrote:

rant
Fishing. Everywhere, more anglers and more fishing line. Not only
do I need to worry about not hitting their lines or "getting too
close" to them,
but I also find my paddle and occasionally my rudder fouled by old discarded
fishing line. Everywhere.

Oh, and when they're about to cast, they look impatient while I pass by. As
if that 10 seconds extra time for me to pass is going to cost them the "big
catch of the day". A few of the more ignorant ones don't even care - they
just cast off anyway.

This is the case with ALL of the rivers and smaller lakes nearby. I'm
beginning to wonder which is worse: jetski's or anglers...

/rant



--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Dave Manby ) writes:


I find the definition of fishing as a sport strange but for want of any
other compartment I suppose sport will have to do. But if someone's
sport involves putting a metal hook in a living creature's mouth and
yanking it out of the river for fun then you do have to question it!

it's just as annoying to read accounts in this newsgroup from paddlers
who's main objective is to see how much milage they can run up in a day in
their sea kayaks or how many rapids they can run in their apparently short
lifetimes. it's annoying when they show no appreciation for nature and
deride slower paddlers who like being outdoors "birdwatching" and away
from their high speed high tech highly competitive high cost environment.

it's just as annoying to read the writings of people who think what they
do for "recreation" is what everyone else should be made to do through
legislation, regulation, certification, and any other from of restriction
they can come up with.



--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-FreeNet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

William R. Watt wrote:

it's just as annoying to read the writings of people who think what they
do for "recreation" is what everyone else should be made to do through
legislation, regulation, certification, and any other from of restriction
they can come up with.

It's even more annoying to read the writings of someone who has so
little grasp of the English language that he can't comprehend messages
written by those who do. Of course, that utter lack of understanding
doesn't stop him from applying his nonsensical ideas to replies to their
posts... despite the fact that he is overreacting to something they
never even mentioned in their posts in the first place.

--
Wilko van den Bergh wilko(a t)dse(d o t)nl
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
---Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.---
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Tracy wrote:
Your being intolerant in an elitest sort of way.
These people are causing you no harm. They are fishing. I see far more
people fishing than I see kayaking. I usually find them to be very
friendly and happy people. I have had interesting conversations
pertaining to the location of alligators, snakes, fish, birds and other
wildlife. We are in the outdoors together, lets not be kayak snobs.

Tracy,

Yes and no. Fishing line is a serious hazard to wildlife. It is found in
the stomachs of, and around the necks of, sea mammals, fish, sea
turtles, and a host of other animals in the wild. Last time I was
paddling in Monterey, I saw an adolescent sea lion that was doomed to
death because monofiliment line was wrapped around its neck. The animal
was, otherwise, healthy, but the line had already cut through the flesh
as the animal grew. While I think that parts of the post were
questionable, fishing line needs to be retrieved, when possible, and
disposed of properly. Most often, it is not.

stuff deleted...

....stuff deleted

What happens when environmentalists become concerned that you may
disturb nesting birds? I actually heard an "environmentalist" state
that kayaks disturb birds because she saw a bird fly as a kayak
approached. She seemed to imply that disturbance equalled harm. I told
her how I spotted a bird at 100x through my C-5 get disturbed by a
gentle breeze and if she was in favor of banning wind. I never got an
answer.

Kayaking does disturb wildlife and may well cause harm. Humans, by their
very presence, pose a hazard to wildlife. The bird may well have been
protecting a nest and while fleeing from the paddler was unable to
protect the offspring from the snake climbing the grass. Most of the
damage we do in nature is accidental (or poorly considered). Your
example trivializes an important issue, which is that we do scare
animals when we paddle and it is best that we take care when we are in
animal habitat.

....more deleted


Your rights stop where my freedom begins. And Vice Versa.
I know its hard sometimes. I hate Jet Ski's and Cigarette boats. They
have their places, we have ours. Leave them alone. Besides, one day I
may try one out for a couple of hours.

Professional Target wrote:

.... rest deleted

I read you loud and clear.

You have no problem labeling fisherman as illiterates.

You seek to enforce rules banning them from fishing.

You will be the first to whine when fisherman and other assorted people
place signs prohibiting kayak launching.

Mind your own business and paddle.

Professional Target wrote:

Tracy writes:
[blah]

Read the rest of what I wrote here. Get down off your own elitist horse
for a moment.

Rick wrote:

Tracy wrote:

Your being intolerant in an elitest sort of way.
These people are causing you no harm. They are fishing. I see far
more people fishing than I see kayaking. I usually find them to be
very friendly and happy people. I have had interesting conversations
pertaining to the location of alligators, snakes, fish, birds and
other wildlife. We are in the outdoors together, lets not be kayak
snobs.


Tracy,

Yes and no. Fishing line is a serious hazard to wildlife. It is found
in the stomachs of, and around the necks of, sea mammals, fish, sea
turtles, and a host of other animals in the wild. Last time I was
paddling in Monterey, I saw an adolescent sea lion that was doomed to
death because monofiliment line was wrapped around its neck. The
animal was, otherwise, healthy, but the line had already cut through
the flesh as the animal grew. While I think that parts of the post
were questionable, fishing line needs to be retrieved, when possible,
and disposed of properly. Most often, it is not.

There are morons in every crowd. Some of them happen to be fisherman.
Everyone does something stupid at some time in their life including me
and probably you. I bought some fishing line the other day and found
that the package was labled specifically telling buyers not to unspool
line in the wild because of the things you are talking about. In fact,
the store that I bought the line from offers a service where they will
unspool and respool your line thus ensuring proper disposal. I remember
thinking it would be great if the line were recycled by the spool or
chopped into 12" segment by the unspooling machine. (I don't really
fish, I was buying the line and a sinker to launch into a tree so I
could use it to pull a rope to remove a dead and dangerous branch. I do
however reserve the right to change my mind and annoy Professional
Target by deciding to cast a line in the water. I will try to put on a
fake smile and bow while he passes to make him feel more comfortable.)

I have seen a few spools of line in the bayous. Since fishing line
lasts a very long time, I know that the vast majority must be disposed
of properly or I simply couldn't paddle since the bayous have been
heavily fished for a very long time. I agree that dumped line is a
problem for human swimmers as well as wildlife. I believe that
education will stop most people from dumping it. I know that education
will not stop a few from dumping line. The point is that we shouldn't
treat every fisherman as a criminal because some moron might happen to
be a fisherman.

stuff deleted...

...stuff deleted

What happens when environmentalists become concerned that you may
disturb nesting birds? I actually heard an "environmentalist" state
that kayaks disturb birds because she saw a bird fly as a kayak
approached. She seemed to imply that disturbance equalled harm. I
told her how I spotted a bird at 100x through my C-5 get disturbed by
a gentle breeze and if she was in favor of banning wind. I never got
an answer.


Kayaking does disturb wildlife and may well cause harm. Humans, by
their very presence, pose a hazard to wildlife. The bird may well have
been protecting a nest and while fleeing from the paddler was unable
to protect the offspring from the snake climbing the grass. Most of
the damage we do in nature is accidental (or poorly considered). Your
example trivializes an important issue, which is that we do scare
animals when we paddle and it is best that we take care when we are in
animal habitat.

Oh bull****. Maybe the snake would have died if he hadn't eaten a cute
little baby bird. Don't breath, drink, eat, ****, ****, pass wind, pass
go, or collect $200. Just sit there, grow old and die. Don't get
cremated because that will pollute the air. Don't get buried because
that will disturb the earthworms. Just melt away like Fosty the
Snowman. Be carefull not to drown the fire ants.



...more deleted


Your rights stop where my freedom begins. And Vice Versa.
I know its hard sometimes. I hate Jet Ski's and Cigarette boats.
They have their places, we have ours. Leave them alone. Besides,
one day I may try one out for a couple of hours.

Professional Target wrote:

... rest deleted

Tracy writes:

I read you loud and clear.

Apparently you do not.

You have no problem labeling fisherman as illiterates.

Since your own literacy is apparently in question, I shall refrain from
continuing this discussion with you. Instead, I'll let you read Rick's
reply in this thread which sums it up quit nicely.


--
Man is the only animal that laughs and weeps, for he is the only animal
that is struck with the difference between what things are and what they
ought to be.

....stuff deleted
Kayaking does disturb wildlife and may well cause harm. Humans, by
their very presence, pose a hazard to wildlife. The bird may well have
been protecting a nest and while fleeing from the paddler was unable
to protect the offspring from the snake climbing the grass. Most of
the damage we do in nature is accidental (or poorly considered). Your
example trivializes an important issue, which is that we do scare
animals when we paddle and it is best that we take care when we are in
animal habitat.


Oh bull****. Maybe the snake would have died if he hadn't eaten a cute
little baby bird. Don't breath, drink, eat, ****, ****, pass wind, pass
go, or collect $200. Just sit there, grow old and die. Don't get
cremated because that will pollute the air. Don't get buried because
that will disturb the earthworms. Just melt away like Fosty the
Snowman. Be carefull not to drown the fire ants.


Tracy,

You are letting your ignorance show. Humans always have impacts in
nature. What those are go largely unnoticed by us, so we have a tendency
to believe thay don't happen. I've seen humans kill animals in just this
way, most commonly a young sea lion being trampled to death when a
kayaker wanted to get a picture of the animals from their kayak at the
rock wall protecting Monterey harbor. I have worked with marine mammals,
and their handlers, and have been battered about the head and shoulders
of "don't do's" for years now. I am not saying that this "always"
happens, just that it does. Our ignorance of our impact is part of the
paroblem.

Personally, I take pains not to disturb animals in their habitat, you
don't. Animals can't set rules (such as wipe your feet) in their
environment, so we have to do some of that for them.

Your insensitivity and closed mind does not speak well of you.

Rick


...more deleted


Your rights stop where my freedom begins. And Vice Versa.
I know its hard sometimes. I hate Jet Ski's and Cigarette boats.
They have their places, we have ours. Leave them alone. Besides,
one day I may try one out for a couple of hours.

Professional Target wrote:

... rest deleted

Rick wrote:

...stuff deleted

Kayaking does disturb wildlife and may well cause harm. Humans, by
their very presence, pose a hazard to wildlife. The bird may well
have been protecting a nest and while fleeing from the paddler was
unable to protect the offspring from the snake climbing the grass.
Most of the damage we do in nature is accidental (or poorly
considered). Your example trivializes an important issue, which is
that we do scare animals when we paddle and it is best that we take
care when we are in animal habitat.



Oh bull****. Maybe the snake would have died if he hadn't eaten a
cute little baby bird. Don't breath, drink, eat, ****, ****, pass
wind, pass go, or collect $200. Just sit there, grow old and die.
Don't get cremated because that will pollute the air. Don't get
buried because that will disturb the earthworms. Just melt away like
Fosty the Snowman. Be carefull not to drown the fire ants.


Tracy,

You are letting your ignorance show. Humans always have impacts in
nature. What those are go largely unnoticed by us, so we have a
tendency to believe thay don't happen. I've seen humans kill animals
in just this way, most commonly a young sea lion being trampled to
death when a kayaker wanted to get a picture of the animals from their
kayak at the rock wall protecting Monterey harbor. I have worked with
marine mammals, and their handlers, and have been battered about the
head and shoulders of "don't do's" for years now. I am not saying that
this "always" happens, just that it does. Our ignorance of our impact
is part of the paroblem

Personally, I take pains not to disturb animals in their habitat, you
don't.

I presume that you are a human.

"Humans, by their very presence, pose a hazard to wildlife." Those are
your words.

So your "pains" do not matter. You by your very presence as a human are
disturbing animals in their habitat. And yet you continue to invade
their habitat. You violate your own rules. You obviously do not feel
that it is wrong for you to violate your own rules. You only feel that
it wrong for other people, ignorant people like me, to violate your
rules. In your world, I am not one of you and therefore I must be
harming the animals. In your prejudice you have presumed that I have
harmed or that I will harm the environment and the animals that live
there. The animals are fine with me. I know, because when I return the
same ones are still there. The habitat is the same.

My point is simply this. You will not be setting the rules for me. I
will ignore your rules as you do.
You may go bite your lip and scream if you like.

The animals will have nothing to fear because I ignore your rules. The
reason for this is that I have my own rules, rules that actually do
good. I follow those rules.

The reason that I must press this in a very blunt and rather rude
fashion is because I have seen the explosion of hysterical rules.
Various groups are trying to stop the enjoyment of the outdoors by other
people. They are usually elitest types like you that think a paddle
placed too harshly will cause some irreparable and permanent harm. It
is a problem of degree. You don't know where to draw the line,
therefore you can't be trusted to set the rules. You draw the line at a
standard that can't be met. That's why you must break your own rules.

You are the insensitve one. You don't care about other people. Just
animals. You assume that only you care about habitat and no one else
could possibly care as much. Well your wrong. We cherish our wild
places. We're just not hysterical if someone eats a fish. We want
rules that perserve wildlife but allow access. There is a balance.
Reasonable people can find the balance. Hysterical ones must be ignored
because they set rules that will be broken.

The only way I can explain it to you is this.

When the speed limit was 70 mph, most everyone obeyed. When the speed
limit was set at 55mph, we became a nation of speeders.

Animals can't set rules (such as wipe your feet) in their environment,
so we have to do some of that for them.

Your insensitivity and closed mind does not speak well of you.

My words speak for me.



Rick



...more deleted


Your rights stop where my freedom begins. And Vice Versa.
I know its hard sometimes. I hate Jet Ski's and Cigarette boats.
They have their places, we have ours. Leave them alone. Besides,
one day I may try one out for a couple of hours.

Professional Target wrote:

... rest deleted