On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:21:01 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .


This will require focusing on the numbers in the paragraph.
Imagine a body of water. It's between 50 and 200 feet deep everywhere, 4
miles wide, and the water's flat as a pancake with no wind. Imagine that
it
has an East side and a West side. For whatever reason, the fishing's
terrific on the East side along the shore. There are 20 boats anchored or
drifting in a zone from the shore to a half mile out. Not a sound. A
penis
boat is flying back and forth within 1/4 mile of those boats, over and
over
again, when it could be doing its thing on the opposite side of the body
of
water. Forget the wake. Pretend it does not exist. Focus on the noise.

This is NOT what you like to call a "straw man".

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?


Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay


Why does the
owner of the penis boat not understand the situation?

You are projecting the actions of jetski's onto those of performance
boat operators.

Nobody mentioned jetskis.

No but "back and forth in the same general area" is behavior typically
associated with PWC operators. Those guys have obvious reasons why
they like to congregate in a relatively small area. Guys who have
performance boats can go much further, and in greater comfort, so it
makes little sense for them to remain in the same area. Like I said
before, it makes no sense. I don't even like going to a water way
that's smaller than 7 or 8 miles, because I like to cruise. The only
exception is when I'm pulling water toys. Then, I like to find a
fairly protected cove or area, and use that.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:21:01 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
. ..


This will require focusing on the numbers in the paragraph.
Imagine a body of water. It's between 50 and 200 feet deep everywhere, 4
miles wide, and the water's flat as a pancake with no wind. Imagine that
it
has an East side and a West side. For whatever reason, the fishing's
terrific on the East side along the shore. There are 20 boats anchored or
drifting in a zone from the shore to a half mile out. Not a sound. A
penis
boat is flying back and forth within 1/4 mile of those boats, over and
over
again, when it could be doing its thing on the opposite side of the body
of
water. Forget the wake. Pretend it does not exist. Focus on the noise.

This is NOT what you like to call a "straw man".

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?


Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay

You must not go out on the Bay very often, Dave, or you must stay in the
little feeder creeks on the perimeter. Where do you boat when you go out
on the Bay, Dave?





Why does the
owner of the penis boat not understand the situation?

You are projecting the actions of jetski's onto those of performance
boat operators.

Nobody mentioned jetskis.

No but "back and forth in the same general area" is behavior typically
associated with PWC operators. Those guys have obvious reasons why
they like to congregate in a relatively small area. Guys who have
performance boats can go much further, and in greater comfort, so it
makes little sense for them to remain in the same area. Like I said
before, it makes no sense. I don't even like going to a water way
that's smaller than 7 or 8 miles, because I like to cruise. The only
exception is when I'm pulling water toys. Then, I like to find a
fairly protected cove or area, and use that.

Dave

Ahhh..you're the asshole who was tearing up the little cove around
Parker's Creek two weeks ago.




--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -
you can't get fooled again." -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept.
17, 2002

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:09:11 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:21:01 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...


This will require focusing on the numbers in the paragraph.
Imagine a body of water. It's between 50 and 200 feet deep everywhere, 4
miles wide, and the water's flat as a pancake with no wind. Imagine that
it
has an East side and a West side. For whatever reason, the fishing's
terrific on the East side along the shore. There are 20 boats anchored or
drifting in a zone from the shore to a half mile out. Not a sound. A
penis
boat is flying back and forth within 1/4 mile of those boats, over and
over
again, when it could be doing its thing on the opposite side of the body
of
water. Forget the wake. Pretend it does not exist. Focus on the noise.

This is NOT what you like to call a "straw man".

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?


Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay

You must not go out on the Bay very often, Dave, or you must stay in the
little feeder creeks on the perimeter. Where do you boat when you go out
on the Bay, Dave?


I'm primarily in the upper end, where the water is still somewhat
fresh. I can be found in the C&D canal, the Bohemia and Sassafras
Rivers, and in Northeast and Charlestown






Why does the
owner of the penis boat not understand the situation?

You are projecting the actions of jetski's onto those of performance
boat operators.

Nobody mentioned jetskis.

No but "back and forth in the same general area" is behavior typically
associated with PWC operators. Those guys have obvious reasons why
they like to congregate in a relatively small area. Guys who have
performance boats can go much further, and in greater comfort, so it
makes little sense for them to remain in the same area. Like I said
before, it makes no sense. I don't even like going to a water way
that's smaller than 7 or 8 miles, because I like to cruise. The only
exception is when I'm pulling water toys. Then, I like to find a
fairly protected cove or area, and use that.

Dave

Ahhh..you're the asshole who was tearing up the little cove around
Parker's Creek two weeks ago.

No, wasn't me. But if it was, what of it? If I'm giving my family and
friends a nice day of fun by pulling them around on various tubes and
skis, who are you to critique it? Unless, of course, you're the owner
of said area, in which case you have my sincerest apologies and
assurance that I'll not be trespassing there again. Of course the
signs warning unsuspecting boaters of this fact were curiously
missing.

Surely you're not about to make a value judgement based on nothing
more substantive than your opinion again are you?

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?

Absolutely. Of the last 4 lakes I mentioned, the first 3 are quite large.
Plenty of room to move. Conesus is too small for offshore boats, but that
doesn't stop a significant number of fools from owning them anyway. Then,
there's Lake Ontario. It's about 45 miles across, measuring north-south.
There's a 10 acre spot a few minutes from where I launch. That spot's
traditionally been a big attraction for fishermen. You meet 90 year old guys
who say "Yip....if ya wanna git ya some bass, you wanna drift across the
lumps right off from Hedges" (a restaurant clearly visible from the shore).
On a dead-calm evening, in water that begins at 25 feet and drops off
quickly to over 400 feet, can you explain why one speedboat after another
has has to roar within a few hundred feet of a bunch of 14-20 ft boats? At
the speeds they're going, they could move out a 1/2 mile in 30-40 seconds.



Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay

Look in a mirror. You seem to suggest that you think it's just fine to
deliver lots of noise to people looking for quiet.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:45:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?

Absolutely. Of the last 4 lakes I mentioned, the first 3 are quite large.
Plenty of room to move. Conesus is too small for offshore boats, but that
doesn't stop a significant number of fools from owning them anyway. Then,
there's Lake Ontario. It's about 45 miles across, measuring north-south.
There's a 10 acre spot a few minutes from where I launch. That spot's
traditionally been a big attraction for fishermen. You meet 90 year old guys
who say "Yip....if ya wanna git ya some bass, you wanna drift across the
lumps right off from Hedges" (a restaurant clearly visible from the shore).


On a dead-calm evening, in water that begins at 25 feet and drops off
quickly to over 400 feet, can you explain why one speedboat after another
has has to roar within a few hundred feet of a bunch of 14-20 ft boats? At
the speeds they're going, they could move out a 1/2 mile in 30-40 seconds.

No I can't, but there must be a reason, otherwise why do it?


Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay

Look in a mirror. You seem to suggest that you think it's just fine to
deliver lots of noise to people looking for quiet.


As opposed to demanding quiet from people looking to make noise?
Another value judgement?

Like in most things in life, people enjoy different things in
recreation. In the area of boating, we all have one thing in common; a
love of the water. Beyond that and the similarities end and the
differences begin. Some people like hanging in a few selected places
and fishing. Other people like harnessing the power of the wind and
converting it into free propulsion. Others enjoy water toys. And even
others like to run fast. Some people like a glass smooth water, others
actually like chop.

Where am I going with all this? The point is that many people enjoy
different things on the water. Many of those activities clash with the
activities of others. In order for everyone to get along to a
reasonable degree, there has to be some sort of compromise. One of the
first rules of compromise is not to automatically assume that "the
other guy" has the responsibility to "adjust" all the time.
Another important rule is to not set your expectations too high. You
can't expect to venture out on a crowded waterway, and not encounter
chop, wakes and some noise. Yet another rule is to put yourself in the
other guy's shoes before you're ready to trash his particular
activity. How would you like it someone was calling for restrictions
on your activity simply because they were "annoyed" by it? "Ah!" you
might say, "I don't have to worry, my activity does not bother
anyone". Really? Try looking at it from the other guy's point of view.
Name any boating activity, and I can assign some level of "annoyance
factor" to it.

One of the worst (arrogant) things you can do is make a value
judgement of what someone else's activity is "worth", based on your
perceptions of it. We all have the right to pursue our leisure
activities to some degree, within the boundaries of public safety and
welfare.

That being said, some people flaunt their activities a little too
much, and at inappropriate times. If you're running a loud boat, for
God's sake, don't run it when the rest of the marina is sleeping. If
you're sailing, don't cut over in front of an overtaking powerboat
because you feel you can. If you like to fish, don't do it in the
middle of a narrow transit channel, and then have the nerve to get
angry when boats pass by and "wake" you to death.

Waterskiiers and fishermen both seem to like sheltered coves to do
their thing in. To the fisherman, the skiboat creates continual wakes
and noise, and is a source of annoyance. To the skier, the fisherman
is an obstacle in the way of his "course" and is also a source of
annoyance.

Boating is one activity were a little tolerance is sorely needed. You
guys on the left are always touting the virtues of diversity and
tolerance as healthy and enriches our culture. I find it curious that
these same traits are not applied when it comes to our recreational
activities.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:




Where am I going with all this? The point is that many people enjoy
different things on the water. Many of those activities clash with the
activities of others.


The answer, obviously, is to enforce the same sorts of noise
restrictions on the water as are enforced on land. If you are within
earshot of others in coves, creeks or on shore, effective engine
muffling is required.

If the penisboaters don't like it, they can always go offshore. Way
offshore.


--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -
you can't get fooled again." -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept.
17, 2002

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 07:48:24 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:




Where am I going with all this? The point is that many people enjoy
different things on the water. Many of those activities clash with the
activities of others.


The answer, obviously, is to enforce the same sorts of noise
restrictions on the water as are enforced on land. If you are within
earshot of others in coves, creeks or on shore, effective engine
muffling is required.

If the penisboaters don't like it, they can always go offshore. Way
offshore.

If they can. It's tough to go "offshore" on a landlocked lake.

Or maybe those who don't like a little engine music, can find another
station to tune to.......

Dave

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:45:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake,
and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?

Absolutely. Of the last 4 lakes I mentioned, the first 3 are quite large.
Plenty of room to move. Conesus is too small for offshore boats, but that
doesn't stop a significant number of fools from owning them anyway. Then,
there's Lake Ontario. It's about 45 miles across, measuring north-south.
There's a 10 acre spot a few minutes from where I launch. That spot's
traditionally been a big attraction for fishermen. You meet 90 year old
guys
who say "Yip....if ya wanna git ya some bass, you wanna drift across the
lumps right off from Hedges" (a restaurant clearly visible from the
shore).


On a dead-calm evening, in water that begins at 25 feet and drops off
quickly to over 400 feet, can you explain why one speedboat after another
has has to roar within a few hundred feet of a bunch of 14-20 ft boats?
At
the speeds they're going, they could move out a 1/2 mile in 30-40
seconds.

No I can't, but there must be a reason, otherwise why do it?

OK. Using the numbers I provided, which enable you to understand the
navigational issues in this particular spot, come up with 3 possible
reasons.