On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:28:57 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:
if you take a
look at the barely floating derelict of a boat she calls her own and the
rusting piece of crap "diesel outboard" engine with which she
underpowers it.
===============================

Be kind Harry. We all know that the best boat in the world is the one
that we own (particularly if its also paid for).

But there are better materials and most of them are not subject to water
intrusion or rotting. The biggest weakness in most fiberglass boats is the
wood. If it was not for the wood a properly constructed fiberglass boat
would last forever. Anyone buying a new boat today should be considering no
wood models seriously.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Lawrence James wrote:

I suggest you take a look at some standard floor joist simple span
tables
and see just what it takes to span 10 feet. Conventional wood is not
very
resistant to flexing. A lot of other things are stronger.

Well, of course, but that's not the point, is it? The point is that
properly designed, implemented and installed, wood floor joists are
strong enough. And that's all they have to be. As to the flexing issues,
my house has built-up "truss" joists of wood, and my floors don't flex
to the point you'd notice it. Further, large areas of the main and
second floors of my house are covered in ceramic and marble tile,
installed the usual way, and we have no cracks in the mortar or tile. If
there were substantial flexing of the wood subfloor (held up by wood
trusses), we'd have some mortar cracks.




An all composite, no wood boat is a lot better than one with wood in it.

Again, I suggest you take that up with Grady-White and other
manufacturers of small pleasure boats who continue to use wood in the
construction of their boats. GW can build boats any way it chooses,
without worrying too much about price points, since it already is at the
top of the price chart. It chooses wood.


Just because a lot of boats have been made with wood does not make it
good.
It just means it is cheap and easy.

It's easier to build a small boat's structure of composites or foam. The
stuff can come out of a mold and be glued into the boat. No special
skills required.






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We're talking about years and years once water has intruded. And it will
intrude. It never drys once soaked.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Lawrence James wrote:

The problem is that fiberglass is not water proof. Water migrates thru
the
fiberglass and soaks the stringer. You can not seal a wood stringer
with
fiberglass. Epoxy is more likely to keep the stringer dry but it is a
lot
more expensive so nobody uses it. Even with epoxy any compromise is
going
to let the water thru.


What's the impact of water on XL plywood?



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Wayne.B wrote:

On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 21:28:57 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:
if you take a
look at the barely floating derelict of a boat she calls her own and the
rusting piece of crap "diesel outboard" engine with which she
underpowers it.
===============================

Be kind Harry. We all know that the best boat in the world is the one
that we own (particularly if its also paid for).


No argument from me, but if I were casting aspersions on the boat or
engine designs or construction of others, I'd want to be sure that mine
was or were of at least standard quality and in reputable condition.

Further, the one photo I've seen of her boat, and it isn't a very good
photo, shows a craft that looks carvel-built to me, or, maybe
clinker-built. Though it could have popped out of a mold that way, it
may well be a wood-hulled boat. Looks to be a planing hull, too, or at
least semi-displacement. If so, it is grossly underpowered with that
rusting hulk of a "diesel" outboard.


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Visit Yo Ho, our Parker fishing boat:

http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/hakrause

Lawrence James wrote:

But there are better materials and most of them are not subject to water
intrusion or rotting. The biggest weakness in most fiberglass boats is the
wood. If it was not for the wood a properly constructed fiberglass boat
would last forever. Anyone buying a new boat today should be considering no
wood models seriously.

Hmmm. So, I guess no one should be considering boats from Grady,
Hatteras, Buddy Davis, Parker and about a ka-zillion others...at least
not seriously.

Water permeates fiberglass, by the way. And it sure can play havoc with
the gel coat. You've not seen a blistered fiberglass boat? That isn't
wood popping off the surface. Or foam that has become waterlogged?

Now, steel, that's a boatbuilder's material. Treat it properly and keep
it properly coated, pay attention to galvanic action and voila! A boat
that will last a lifetime.


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Harry Krause wrote:

Lawrence James wrote:

But there are better materials and most of them are not subject to water
intrusion or rotting. The biggest weakness in most fiberglass boats is the
wood. If it was not for the wood a properly constructed fiberglass boat
would last forever. Anyone buying a new boat today should be considering no
wood models seriously.

Hmmm. So, I guess no one should be considering boats from Grady,
Hatteras, Buddy Davis, Parker and about a ka-zillion others...at least
not seriously.

Water permeates fiberglass, by the way. And it sure can play havoc with
the gel coat. You've not seen a blistered fiberglass boat? That isn't
wood popping off the surface. Or foam that has become waterlogged?

Now, steel, that's a boatbuilder's material. Treat it properly and keep
it properly coated, pay attention to galvanic action and voila! A boat
that will last a lifetime.


One correction. Hatt converted to all-composite stringers a couple of
years ago. Less labor involved.

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Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 03:44:31 +1100, K Smith wrote:


Wood is not a very strong material at all. Tougher hardwoods have very
moderate strength in compression, but other than that wood is a very
weak material with low resistance to flexing+


================================================== ==

Not at all true, wood has a very high strength to weight ratio. You
are confusing strength with stiffness. They are two entirely
different properties.


With respect I don't think so indeed wood is of such low structural
strength at any sort of unsupported span is usually limited by the
weight of the wood itself. i.e. if you get the books out & design a
wooden beam to carry a heavy load over spans that are commonplace with
say RSJs, composites or even ferro, the problem with wood becomes that
the beam sags under it's own weight, without any load!!!

It's reasonably good at holding leaves up, flexible enough to survive
wind storms (maybe sometimes) & porous enough to allow them some water
etc, so long as those leaves a manufacturing food to keep it in good
working order. As soon as it's removed from it's roots & leaves life
support it just become mulch indeed even trees throw those limbs off
rather than risk the rot spreading. As a structural material it's not
much good. Add a moist boat type environment & that's why boats are
built these days of almost anything other than wood. I love my old
wooden boat, but .......



K

Harry Krause wrote:
K Smith wrote:



Wood is not a very strong material at all.


Bull****. Wood is a very strong material when used appropriately.

Not according to any rational analysis. It's cheap & renewable to some
extent & still has some traditional uses but in actual structural
situations it's about the worst choice. However you are certainly
entitled to put your opinion, just so long as you don't deny me the same
right.




Tougher hardwoods have very

moderate strength in compression, but other than that wood is a very
weak material with low resistance to flexing & even worse performance in
tension. i.e. bend a piece of wood to simulate a load in the middle; one
side is in compression & the other is in tension.



Yeah? Tell you what. Envision a wood stringer, say 2"x10"x16'. Tip it on
its edge. Now, try to bend it in the up or down plane with any load
similar to what you might find in a working hull. Now, build that 2x10
into an eggcrate sort of structure, with cross members of the same or
similar material. Now subject that structure to lateral loads. Doesn't
bend that way either.

This is real world construction here, Karen, not some crap you lifted
off a web site.

Gee now if only websites could give some understanding I could lead you
to one, however you are just babbling because it's me delivering the
news, sorry don't shoot me I'm just the tea girl delivering the mail.




The wood will bend

easily & a great deal, it will usually then break as the tension side
fails. So I'd like to submit the problem with wood is that it's wood.



The problem isn't wood in boats. It is the wood between your ears.

Dear dear dear you can't help yourself, tell you what why don't you
make up a lie about how you're a structural engineer & specialise in
these things, or how about the jetski lie, this time what?? you won a
hammer & nail in a raffle???





Most anything designed in wood is strength for strength much much
heavier than almost any other material, steel, glass, even ferro. This
is because the material is inherently weak & this weakness is aggravated
by the difficulties of attaching it to anything, even itself (mechanical
fastenings, nuts & bolts are about the only real fix)



Really? Gosh. There probably are 100 million wood frame houses in the
united states, some more than 100 years old. I suppose that because of
the weakness of wood and the difficulties of attaching it to anyting,
even itself, are really problematical, eh?

Gees louise you really think a house frame is the same thing??? You
have no concept do you, try picking a wooden house up say 4ft by one
corner then drop it as you pick the opposing side up the same 4 ft.
You'll have barbie fuel for longer than it would take for you to tell
the truth about the time. Timber house bearers weight almost as much as
the highest loads they're ever likely to see & again if you stopped &
thought about things you'd realise whenever timber is used as a
structural load bearing materieal it's in compression, never in tension,
because in tension it will fail usually where the tension force is
applied. Boats aren't static they get constantly attacked by forces from
all angles, not to mention the regular tangles with a wharf or sandbar
at varying speeds.




It might be a "normal" process when you glass over wood because resins
will not ever properly bond to wood


You ought to send your resume to Grady-White. I'm sure they'd be
interested in hiring you because in your opinion, the boats they build
are likely to fall apart any moment; their stringers are constructed of
XL plywood covered in fiberglass.

But what could Grady-White know about boat=building, compared to the
Australian bull**** artist, Karen Elizabeth Smith?

Gee now there's a killer rejoinder, some people still use wood
therefore wood must be good??? Harry if you had any education whatsoever
you'd never come out with these childish arguments.




I'd like to also disagree with this if I may. Hollow sections are never
as strong as three dimensional webbed or bulkheaded sections. i.e. say
in steel a rolled hollow section (RHS) of a given weight is never as
strong as as a universal column (RSJ) of the same weight.


An important principle to keep in mind when building small boats, eh?

Yep absolutely if you can understand the general principles of how
materials are used you can use that in all sorts of innovative new ways,
do you want a link to the rec boats page for a classic example??



More Karen lifts from engineering webpages, but no understanding of
materials or applications.




Harry that was just a quick off the cuff answer to what I saw as a
sweeping statement about cored beams which I tried to counter & actually
explain why I disagreed. It's no surprise you can't understand it but as
with so many other things here at least I've tried.

As for the rest of your comments I guess all I can say is tell me where
I can even see let alone inspect other reasonable HP diesel OB motors, I
mean even Yanmar gave up at 40 HP so till you find the latest diesel OBs
in the same HP range as mine ............ The boat?? yep; she's old &
yes she works for her keep but it's my boat independently verifiable to
anyone, which is more than can be said of you or your made up fantasy boats

K



--

Chuck,
I guess this is the issue, I'm considering getting a late vintage
1980's, 30 foot Sea Ray and I'm not sure how important the wood's integrity
is. I'm under the impression it played a vital role rather than a place
holder for the glass.
Paul

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Chuck,

Depends on the stringer. Did the manufacturer intend to have an FRP
stringer
that just happens to to have a wood or foam core, or did the mfg put 3/32
inch
of glass to "encapsulate" a wooden stringer where the wood was actually
bearing
the stress?

Thanks Wally, kind of figured that's what you meant. Sounds like they put
some thinking into those Tolly's.
Paul

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 08:05:26 -0500, "Paul Schilter"
paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote:

Wally,
Okay, but were the Silverton's stringers wood core or foam?
Paul


Wood... I don't have the exact details. I'm guessing water got in
there and turned the wood to mush and things got wiggly.

"Where's the beef?"