The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

You may be correct. (I almost said "right" -- whoops) I'm going to try to be
good for a while. It's really hard to stay quiet after reading the stuff being
written, but I'm gonna try!

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

JohnH wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

You may be correct. (I almost said "right" -- whoops) I'm going to try to be
good for a while. It's really hard to stay quiet after reading the stuff being
written, but I'm gonna try!

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

It's really difficult to get a decent boating discussion going here on a
topic of interest, and I don't mean yet another discussion about
Bayliner boats. You start something out and the idiots jump right in and
Skipperize it.

But I try every so often. Less often these days.





--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats.

I believe that there are people who get some sort of personal
satisfaction from contaminating one or more popular ngs with
their childish garbage, so the ng(s) become unpopular. What
can be done about it if that's the case?

I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here.

That would probably be the only possible answer. But from what
I've seen they sometimes play the part of more than one poster
so it appears they always have someone else acknowledgeing
them, and they also attack new participants in an effort to run
them off as a basic technique in their attempt to destroy respectable
participation.

In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters.

Then they are being successful. It shows that just a few low
life scum can wreck things for a lot of decent people. Since so
few people would feel good about themselves for sinking to
such a level of unrespectability, what kind of terrible lives must
these few people have that makes them feel better about
themselves for doing things that most people would be ashamed
of doing? It's almost certain that they are begging for attention
at the expense of everyone else, in the same way a screwed up
little kid does it. They want to participate but have nothing to
offer, so they detract since that's all they are capable of doing.

I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JohnH wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns

wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to
engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to
ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage
you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be
appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the
noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

You may be correct. (I almost said "right" -- whoops) I'm going to
try to be
good for a while. It's really hard to stay quiet after reading the
stuff being
written, but I'm gonna try!

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

It's really difficult to get a decent boating discussion going here on
a
topic of interest, and I don't mean yet another discussion about
Bayliner boats. You start something out and the idiots jump right in
and
Skipperize it.

But I try every so often. Less often these days.

maybe monthly. What a joke. And please stop changing ID, it screws up
my blocked sender list.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Well put Gene. And the flame trolls make it worse.

Many of the regulars here are dedicated boaters. Their goal is to take
care of their floating money pit and once in a while actually get away
from the dock.

The few who scud through like a black cloud on the horizon really don't
make a difference. Like a Rifs, let them rave and blow. Me,I will
chuckle a bit at the uselessness of it all, and move on to a poster who
wants to discuss boats.

To that end, anyone that wants to chat about broken engines, stuck
steering, bottom paint, ripoff marine repairs, deck polish, bilge water
or just talk about their last trip, please post it!

Also, if there are any other CGAUX out there, feel free to email me.

Capt. Frank Hopkins

My boating related website:
http://www.home.earthlink.net/~aartworks




Gene Kearns wrote:
Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

Gene, you made my day.

When I first posted my "whine" about OT, I got good email support from
casual visitors, but only one "reg". I backed off. If I couldn't get
the support from regs, then the vote probably wouldn't do well.

This newsgroup can be changed. An FAQ can be adopted. A sister
"discussion" group for OT can be created. But it is ALL subject to
being supported, defended, and voted on by the people who frequent
here. Support for the change will have to be more than "casual" to be
effective.

In the 5 or so years that I have been around here, there has been a
definite decline in the number of on-topic posts, and posters.
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the
OT. I have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club. I may be alone in
my opinion, but I don't buy it, and I don't like it. I have
participated in OT threads, but I would rather do it elsewhere. There
is a reason that there are over 40,000 newsgroups. Each one, believe
it or not, has a "topic". :o)

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Safe, and happy boating,
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. :o)

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.


So.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Fri, 07 Nov 2003 07:13:31 GMT, "Paul" wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.


So.


:o)

....a sense of humor is always good. Double :o).
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. :o)

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.
"Somebody" has to judge whether the thread, "Our Heroic Leader, GWB, sent me a
Republican tax refund so I could afford to put tires on my boat trailer" is on
topic, or not. "Somebody" has to be able to pull the plug
on the handful of half-wits who post nothing but insults and/or profanity.
(assuming that insults and profanity aren't finally accepted as somehow
on-topic).

The great thing about an unrestricted format is that the group reflects
*exactly* what the participants want it to be. It is precisely the sum total of
dozens of individual parts. It's always amazing to hear from some guy who
appears for the first time to say, "Well, I hung out here for a couple of
months but I didn't find anything really worthwhile and nobody addressed the
issues I'm interested in, so I'm outta here."

Don't see what you like here? Introduce it.
Post a question or a comment about your pet subject. Beats heck out of going
away disappointed.

There are any number of moderated and censored boards for boating. Boater Ed,
Hull Truth, etc etc etc. Those who insist on a tight structure and censored
posts can and should go there. The redeming aspect of an open forum is that
although you wind up shoveling through a lot of horse crap, more often than not
there is a pony 'round here someplace.

I'd be for leaving things as they are, with hopes that the worst offenders for
introducing political posts might consider toning it down a bit. I'll admit to
participating in the OT arguments and debates as much as anybody and more than
most- but I am nowhere nearly among the leaders in starting the OT balls
rolling.

A fair number of the folks who aren't boaters followed one of our regulars here
from other NG's, where he has apparently p'd off a few folks of opposite
political persuasion. I guess these people couldn't get enough arguing and
flaming to suit them in the jet ski group and others.

Suggestion: How about two continuous threads to contain *all* political posts?
One could be "Right Wing Fallacies and Enlightened LIberal Rebuttals", and the
other could be "Treasonous Left Wing Socialist Rantings and Patriotic
Conservatives' outraged reactions." Most NG readers probably work like mine and
separate posts by thread. If the RW or the LW thread has 215 posts in a day, so
be it. One click and those who have no interest can simply pass it by.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

OK, I'm saying so.

Steve H.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.
"Somebody" has to judge whether the thread, "Our Heroic Leader, GWB, sent me a
Republican tax refund so I could afford to put tires on my boat trailer" is on
topic, or not. "Somebody" has to be able to pull the plug
on the handful of half-wits who post nothing but insults and/or profanity.
(assuming that insults and profanity aren't finally accepted as somehow
on-topic).

Chuck, ..Mr. Gould, as a former '60's hippie, I can identify with
"rules, schmules". No moderators.

As a sentient, compassionate, and aware being, I say that "insults and
profanity" have been here for a long time.

The great thing about an unrestricted format is that the group reflects
*exactly* what the participants want it to be. It is precisely the sum total of
dozens of individual parts. It's always amazing to hear from some guy who
appears for the first time to say, "Well, I hung out here for a couple of
months but I didn't find anything really worthwhile and nobody addressed the
issues I'm interested in, so I'm outta here."

I don't object to an unrestricted format. I would welcome it, as long
as it didn't have the title "rec.boats". How about
rec.boats.unrestricted?

Don't see what you like here? Introduce it.
Post a question or a comment about your pet subject. Beats heck out of going
away disappointed.

LOL! Done that before....
You are a very logical man. I have seen it in the newsgroup, but you
cannot logically defend the OT posting to a group named "rec.boats".
You're good, but you're not *that* good.

There are any number of moderated and censored boards for boating. Boater Ed,
Hull Truth, etc etc etc. Those who insist on a tight structure and censored
posts can and should go there. The redeming aspect of an open forum is that
although you wind up shoveling through a lot of horse crap, more often than not
there is a pony 'round here someplace.

No one is talking about moderated or censored newsgroups. I would be
thrilled with a negotiated and adopted FAQ. I'm a big, occasionally
foolish, Irish numbskull that loves to "mess around in boats".
Thought control is beyond my experience. Boats are within.

I'd be for leaving things as they are, with hopes that the worst offenders for
introducing political posts might consider toning it down a bit. I'll admit to
participating in the OT arguments and debates as much as anybody and more than
most- but I am nowhere nearly among the leaders in starting the OT balls
rolling.

Ah, a hopeful heart. I don't see you, at least under the nic's I
know, as an instigator. I have often expressed my appreciation for
your extraordinarily well written stories of "the water". Can we
agree that some topics belong here, and some don't? If not, tell me
what you think. Staight up and staight out.

A fair number of the folks who aren't boaters followed one of our regulars here
from other NG's, where he has apparently p'd off a few folks of opposite
political persuasion. I guess these people couldn't get enough arguing and
flaming to suit them in the jet ski group and others.

Yup. And they are all Off-topic. Not that they're not good people, I
don't know them, but it is OT. More arguments will bring more people
who don't care about rec.boats.

Suggestion: How about two continuous threads to contain *all* political posts?
One could be "Right Wing Fallacies and Enlightened LIberal Rebuttals", and the
other could be "Treasonous Left Wing Socialist Rantings and Patriotic
Conservatives' outraged reactions." Most NG readers probably work like mine and
separate posts by thread. If the RW or the LW thread has 215 posts in a day, so
be it. One click and those who have no interest can simply pass it by.

Suggestion: How about creating something similar to
"rec.boats.lounge", or "rec.boats.politics", or "rec.boats.geezers"?
I qualify as a "geezer", and would be happy to attempt to kick the ass
of anyone that disagrees! :o) If I can't get my good foot that high,
I'll hit 'em with the wooden one.

Talk to me, please. You are the "Alpha male" in rec.boats, because of
your contributions. Your "non-support" is the primary reason I didn't
go forward with applying for a new FAQ. If you are as smart as I
think you are, you will recognise my inaction, so far, as respect.

I want to hear what you think, and if you bring up the Perkins, I'll
wait a bit.


Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. :o)

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

del cecchi wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JohnH wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns

wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to
engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to
ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage
you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be
appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the
noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

You may be correct. (I almost said "right" -- whoops) I'm going to
try to be
good for a while. It's really hard to stay quiet after reading the
stuff being
written, but I'm gonna try!

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

It's really difficult to get a decent boating discussion going here on
a
topic of interest, and I don't mean yet another discussion about
Bayliner boats. You start something out and the idiots jump right in
and
Skipperize it.

But I try every so often. Less often these days.

maybe monthly. What a joke. And please stop changing ID, it screws up
my blocked sender list.



There you go. You make an on-topic comment and immediately afterwards,
one of the yahoos jumps right in and Skipperizes its.

--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 7 Nov 2003 04:04:19 -0600, noah
wrote:



. Staight up and staight out.

LOL!!! 3/4's Irish, and 1/4 Scott's, and they BOTH dropped the "r".
"Straight up and straight out.".

I love it when I screw up.
It reminds me that I'm temporary.
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. :o)

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 22:32:01 -0600, "del cecchi"
wrote:

But I try every so often. Less often these days.

maybe monthly. What a joke. And please stop changing ID, it screws up
my blocked sender list.

When I started reading this thread I wondered just how far I'd have to
go for the first personal attack. Looks like post #4 is the winner,
congratulations del.

bb

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Noah, if the regulars wanted to have an off topic group to discuss politics
and the sexual habits of the opponents there is a group called alt.boats
that is available on many servers.


"noah" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:
A sister
"discussion" group for OT can be created. But it is ALL subject to
being supported, defended, and voted on by the people who frequent
here. Support for the change will have to be more than "casual" to be
effective.
Safe, and happy boating,
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
...as you were. :o)

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

Hey Gene, I seem to remember you coming down on me as a non boater because I
only put 50-70 hours/year on the engines (I live up north and do not use the
boat for fishing). I directed you to a website detailing every aspect of my
boat, with pictures. I explained to you how my family and I used the boat,
including spending every spring/summer/early fall weekend on it along with 2
solid weeks during the summer. That was not good enough for you. Because
my boating lifestyle differed from yours you found it necessary to flame me
and call me a non boater. Unbelievable.

You have joined in on many OT threads. You have done your share of flaming.

Try some soul searching pal...you will find out that you live in a glass
house with many broken windows.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"bb" wrote in message my blocked sender list.

When I started reading this thread I wondered just how far I'd have to
go for the first personal attack. Looks like post #4 is the winner,
congratulations del.

bb

Actually, #3 seems to have won that title with "Skipperize"

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Why do you constantly change your address, this will be the third time this
month I have to re-block your posts

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
JohnH wrote:
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns

wrote:


Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

You may be correct. (I almost said "right" -- whoops) I'm going to try
to be
good for a while. It's really hard to stay quiet after reading the stuff
being
written, but I'm gonna try!

John
On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD

It's really difficult to get a decent boating discussion going here on a
topic of interest, and I don't mean yet another discussion about
Bayliner boats. You start something out and the idiots jump right in and
Skipperize it.

But I try every so often. Less often these days.





--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
...
Why do you constantly change your address, this will be the third time
this
month I have to re-block your posts


Because he is in desperate need of attention.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 09:55:51 -0500, "Gary Warner"
wrote:


Actually, #3 seems to have won that title with "Skipperize"

I internally debated that issue long and hard before naming #4 the
winner. It is certainly a grey area.

I decided to go with #4 for a few reasons. First, Skipper appears to
have gone the way of madcow, so is there a personal attack if the
person isn't around. Second, I doubt many here don't have an idea
what "Skipperize" means. Good or bad, old skippy made a reputation
for himself. Third would be my own bias.

Of course, I'm willing to listen to rational debate on the issue, as
long as its properly backed up with facts.

bb

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 10:02:50 -0500, "Paul Schilter"
paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote:

Why do you constantly change your address, this will be the third time this
month I have to re-block your posts

Just do it and stop whining. How hard is it to add someone to a
killfile? What would you do if your chore actually had some degree of
difficulty?

bb

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"bb" wrote in message
...

I internally debated that issue long and hard before naming #4 the
winner. It is certainly a grey area.

I decided to go with #4 for a few reasons. First, Skipper appears to
have gone the way of madcow, so is there a personal attack if the
person isn't around. Second, I doubt many here don't have an idea
what "Skipperize" means. Good or bad, old skippy made a reputation
for himself. Third would be my own bias.

Of course, I'm willing to listen to rational debate on the issue, as
long as its properly backed up with facts.

bb


I think it's probably a personal attack - just because the person
seems to be absent doesn't make it better...maybe even worse.

Also, for Harry to say "It's really difficult to get a decent boating
discussion going here..." is a little hypocritical. Sure, he does talk
boats plenty, but he's also one of the OT and antagonistic
posters. Also the "and the idiots jump right in" is a pot-kettel-black
remark.

But whatever. I tend to agree with HKs politics if not always
his tone and none of this OT stuff bothers me much. It it SO
easy to skip or ignore it if one wants to.

Anyway, enough time wasted on this tripe - back to something
good - or at least profitable.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah wrote:

[snip]

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

Gene, you made my day.

When I first posted my "whine" about OT, I got good email support from
casual visitors, but only one "reg". I backed off. If I couldn't get
the support from regs, then the vote probably wouldn't do well.

Because of the fundamental makeup of rec.boats, I believe any sort of vote would
be essentially irrelevant. An unmoderated newsgroup has to operate by
consensus.

This newsgroup can be changed. An FAQ can be adopted. A sister
"discussion" group for OT can be created.

And watch that group be roundly ignored. The people who are most visible in
these squabbles *enjoy* the attention. I've seen exactly this kind of
phenomenon in at least two other newsgroups. One of them died a lingering
death; the other...well, we don't know just yet.

ut it is ALL subject to
being supported, defended, and voted on by the people who frequent
here. Support for the change will have to be more than "casual" to be
effective.

I agree wholeheartedly--with the exception of the "vote." Consensus, yes.
Vote, meaningless.

Taking a vote presupposes that the kind of nasty, arrogant, doctrinaire,
personal bickering *might* be acceptable, and sanctioned. Since I don't think
there's a lot of doubt about the kind of damage this does to a newsgroup, a vote
would not be honored even if it were to "approve" of what is going on now.

In the 5 or so years that I have been around here, there has been a
definite decline in the number of on-topic posts, and posters.

Go back less than that--but for crying out loud, folks, don't try to lay the
blame for the deterioration on [Clinton][Hillary][GWBush][Pat
Robertson][whoever].

We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the
OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.

I may be alone in
my opinion, but I don't buy it, and I don't like it. I have
participated in OT threads, but I would rather do it elsewhere. There
is a reason that there are over 40,000 newsgroups.

Try 90,000 newsgroups. :)

Each one, believe
it or not, has a "topic". :o)

"Topics" are commonly ignored--and that's not necessarily a bad thing.

Thanks for your thoughts, Noah.

Joe Parsons

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters.

Hard to tell, since there's so little boating content.

They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats.

I've come to think it's more a function of people with no sense of
self-restraint or of decorum when it comes to the best interests of the whole.
To my eye, it starts out as a lack of consideration more than anything else.

I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

I've been using Agent for a long time. It's great software--but the simplicity
of using killfiles, filters and "ignore thread" is never going to stop people
from reading these threads, even if only in morbid fascination.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Good possibility.

Think about it, the decision is yours.

It is, indeed. Peer pressure can be a powerful thing.

Joe Parsons

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?
Probably not--you were most likely brought up to observe certain societal norms
and mores, and observe them because, in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

"Somebody" has to judge whether the thread, "Our Heroic Leader, GWB, sent me a
Republican tax refund so I could afford to put tires on my boat trailer" is on
topic, or not. "Somebody" has to be able to pull the plug
on the handful of half-wits who post nothing but insults and/or profanity.
(assuming that insults and profanity aren't finally accepted as somehow
on-topic).

Here's a concept: "You" (generic "you") refrain from rising to the bait when
it's proffered. Why do threads last? Because "you" post to them--and "you"
means "Joe Parsons," too, obviously. When there's a general acknowledgement
that courtesy and civility are part of the societal norm in rec.boats, it
becomes much less likely that a thread like "[xxx], asshole of the Internet"
will garner almost 50 posts. I mean, *look* at yourselves, people! That was
such an obvious troll--and many got snagged by it!

The great thing about an unrestricted format is that the group reflects
*exactly* what the participants want it to be.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. And wrong. There is a phenomenon known as "mob rule," or
"pack mentality." We see it operating here, every day, in the majority of the
posts. Do you really think the handful of people posting to these many
"political" threads are representative of the real audience of rec.boats? The
audience that existed before being driven away. It's a little like the cuckoo,
which never builds its own nest, but lays its eggs into the nests that other
birds have built, and the chicks drive the other birds away, killing many in the
process.

It is precisely the sum total of
dozens of individual parts. It's always amazing to hear from some guy who
appears for the first time to say, "Well, I hung out here for a couple of
months but I didn't find anything really worthwhile and nobody addressed the
issues I'm interested in, so I'm outta here."

Don't see what you like here? Introduce it.
Post a question or a comment about your pet subject. Beats heck out of going
away disappointed.

That's a lovely theory--one I have advanced myself, dozens of times over the pst
15 years. But it just doesn't work, when you have an atmosphere that is so
hostile to reasonable, productive conversation.

There are any number of moderated and censored boards for boating. Boater Ed,
Hull Truth, etc etc etc. Those who insist on a tight structure and censored
posts can and should go there. The redeming aspect of an open forum is that
although you wind up shoveling through a lot of horse crap, more often than not
there is a pony 'round here someplace.

This assumes (incorrectly, I think) that there is any kid left to shovel through
the manure to find the hoped-for pony.

Joe Parsons

I'd be for leaving things as they are, with hopes that the worst offenders for
introducing political posts might consider toning it down a bit. I'll admit to
participating in the OT arguments and debates as much as anybody and more than
most- but I am nowhere nearly among the leaders in starting the OT balls
rolling.

A fair number of the folks who aren't boaters followed one of our regulars here
from other NG's, where he has apparently p'd off a few folks of opposite
political persuasion. I guess these people couldn't get enough arguing and
flaming to suit them in the jet ski group and others.

Suggestion: How about two continuous threads to contain *all* political posts?
One could be "Right Wing Fallacies and Enlightened LIberal Rebuttals", and the
other could be "Treasonous Left Wing Socialist Rantings and Patriotic
Conservatives' outraged reactions." Most NG readers probably work like mine and
separate posts by thread. If the RW or the LW thread has 215 posts in a day, so
be it. One click and those who have no interest can simply pass it by.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 7 Nov 2003 04:04:19 -0600, noah wrote:

On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.
"Somebody" has to judge whether the thread, "Our Heroic Leader, GWB, sent me a
Republican tax refund so I could afford to put tires on my boat trailer" is on
topic, or not. "Somebody" has to be able to pull the plug
on the handful of half-wits who post nothing but insults and/or profanity.
(assuming that insults and profanity aren't finally accepted as somehow
on-topic).

Chuck, ..Mr. Gould, as a former '60's hippie, I can identify with
"rules, schmules". No moderators.

As a sentient, compassionate, and aware being, I say that "insults and
profanity" have been here for a long time.

The great thing about an unrestricted format is that the group reflects
*exactly* what the participants want it to be. It is precisely the sum total of
dozens of individual parts. It's always amazing to hear from some guy who
appears for the first time to say, "Well, I hung out here for a couple of
months but I didn't find anything really worthwhile and nobody addressed the
issues I'm interested in, so I'm outta here."

I don't object to an unrestricted format. I would welcome it, as long
as it didn't have the title "rec.boats". How about
rec.boats.unrestricted?

Don't see what you like here? Introduce it.
Post a question or a comment about your pet subject. Beats heck out of going
away disappointed.

LOL! Done that before....
You are a very logical man. I have seen it in the newsgroup, but you
cannot logically defend the OT posting to a group named "rec.boats".

It's not the OT posting that's the problem. I think much of that content
actually builds community. And a certain amount of off topic posting may serve
to leaven the dough, so to speak, and make the newsgroup a more casual,
friendlier place.

You're good, but you're not *that* good.

There are any number of moderated and censored boards for boating. Boater Ed,
Hull Truth, etc etc etc. Those who insist on a tight structure and censored
posts can and should go there. The redeming aspect of an open forum is that
although you wind up shoveling through a lot of horse crap, more often than not
there is a pony 'round here someplace.

No one is talking about moderated or censored newsgroups.

Noah, for many people, "moderation" is exactly equal to "censorship."

In any case, it's not likely you'd ever see a moderated version of rec.boats. I
just don't see it getting through a CFV.

I would be
thrilled with a negotiated and adopted FAQ.

Now a FAQ is a great idea. It's one of the ways you can build consensus.

Joe Parsons

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?

Of course not.

And, funny thing, I'll bet most of the poison pen posters don't think they're
behaving badly (by their own standards, at least). One of that crowd recently
made some very childish remarks about the sexuality of some other posters, then
tried to deny he'd done so, and in the end said "well, you would have thought
it was funny if you had a properly developed sense of humor."
Do I suspect this is the way a guy like that
behaves when not on-line? Absolutely.

in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

It's dangerous to presume that others have
any interest in life going smoothly. Some kids just love to break things.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Joe Parsons wrote:
On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?
Probably not--you were most likely brought up to observe certain societal norms
and mores, and observe them because, in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

Uh, who elected *you* the Ms. Manners of usenet?

--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Joe Parsons wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters.

Hard to tell, since there's so little boating content.


You've got more than a dozen new posts here today that are totally
devoid of boating content.

--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Joe Parsons wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns

wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters.

Hard to tell, since there's so little boating content.


You've got more than a dozen new posts here today that are totally
devoid of boating content.

--
Email sent to is never read.


As you do.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Let's get this straight. I alluded to you, Harry and jps having sex or
something and you turned it into. "Wally said Harry and I were
buttfu%&ing". You sounded like the kid next store exaggerating to his
Mommy over yet another exaggerated slight.

No, you didn't use the term "buttf***ing"
I believe the exact phrase was "They're rotating turns being the bitch" (in a
3-way)

There's no need to call you names, Wally.
You show yourself for what you are. You'll not find any similar thing I ever
said about you, or any other right winger in the crowd. But then again, I have
at least some ability to debate issues. Some people aren't able to participate
at all unless they can avoid the more abstract ideas and go directly to
personal insult. It's OK, most charitable people will understand. We all get
different gifts. Doesn't make you a bad guy, just a boring, predictable, and
tedious read doing the best he can under the circumstances.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 08 Nov 2003 16:06:34 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Doesn't make you a bad guy, just a boring, predictable, and
tedious read doing the best he can under the circumstances.

Some people were born to lurk, not that that's a bad thing.

bb

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Suggestion: How about two continuous threads to contain *all* political posts?
One could be "Right Wing Fallacies and Enlightened LIberal Rebuttals", and the
other could be "Treasonous Left Wing Socialist Rantings and Patriotic
Conservatives' outraged reactions."

=================================================

That's an interesting suggestion and it might work. I'd be concerned
about the threads becoming polluted over time however by someone
slipping in a remark about boats or boating. That would inspire the
political die hards to start a new thread and the circle would begin
again.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On 08 Nov 2003 06:52:53 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?

Of course not.

And, funny thing, I'll bet most of the poison pen posters don't think they're
behaving badly (by their own standards, at least).

That would surprise me. Most people, I believe *do* have reasonable standards
of behavior--especially as regards fundamental courtesy and civility. I think
it's a matter of how they choose to behave in a particular newsgroup.

One of that crowd recently
made some very childish remarks about the sexuality of some other posters, then
tried to deny he'd done so, and in the end said "well, you would have thought
it was funny if you had a properly developed sense of humor."
Do I suspect this is the way a guy like that
behaves when not on-line? Absolutely.

I don't disagree with you--but people who behave boorishly in Real Life may
simply take that behavior to extremes on Usenet, since there isn't the potential
for consequences here that there are IRL. Threats and posturing
notwithstanding.

in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

It's dangerous to presume that others have
any interest in life going smoothly. Some kids just love to break things.

You may be right. For my part, I'd just as soon assume that *most* people would
rather be in a courteous environment--and will take others to task for behaving
badly.

Peer pressure can be a powerful force.

Joe Parsons

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:58:54 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Joe Parsons wrote:
On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?
Probably not--you were most likely brought up to observe certain societal norms
and mores, and observe them because, in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

Uh, who elected *you* the Ms. Manners of usenet?

Can I infer from this that you're one of the people who chooses not to observe
no-wake zones?

Joe Parsons

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:59:41 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Joe Parsons wrote:

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 20:49:18 -0500, Gene Kearns
wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters.

Hard to tell, since there's so little boating content.


You've got more than a dozen new posts here today that are totally
devoid of boating content.

Have you ever seen me complain about off-topic posts here?

Joe Parsons

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

Joe Parsons wrote:
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 07:58:54 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Joe Parsons wrote:
On 07 Nov 2003 08:15:42 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If anyone would like to see rec.boats returned to "boating", then say
so. Those of us who might be willing to go through the crap of Usenet
procedure will need your support to make it worthwhile.

Rules, schmules....Any restriction will ultimately require a moderator.

Not necessarily. Do you need someone to tell you how to behave in public?
Probably not--you were most likely brought up to observe certain societal norms
and mores, and observe them because, in The Real World(tm), life generally goes
quite a bit more smoothly when we are courteous to others.

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

Uh, who elected *you* the Ms. Manners of usenet?

Can I infer from this that you're one of the people who chooses not to observe
no-wake zones?

Joe Parsons


You can infer whatever pleases you. But that doesn't make your inference
correct or even proper.

--
Email sent to is never read.

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal" will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).

A shiver of dread goes through me every time I send a post, OT or not, to this
NG, because most replies are vicious, personal and/or political (fortunately
Canada is Multi-partisan, so there's less "proving" one party is good by
"proving" the other party is bad), and I'm basically sick of it. It's SO much
easier to wait until someone else posts something and then attack them.

I belong to a fishing message-board and there's also a "OT" (they call it NFR -
Not Fishing-Related) debate there. But there, the atmosphere is SO much more
friendly! NFR posts are usually humourous, even the "highjacked" FR posts, and
there's very little personal attacking (except good-natured barbs, etc)

It's the overall "tone" of this NG, in both on-topic and OT posts, that makes it
suck so bad.

Lloyd Sumpter, Green Party supporter

The truth about the Off Topic Posts
 

On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 12:11:59 -0500, Harry Krause wrote:

Do you observe no-wake zones even when you know there's no law enforcement
around? Bet you do--because it's the *right* thing to do--and because real
people are likely to yell at you if you don't. But more because it's the right
thing to do.

Uh, who elected *you* the Ms. Manners of usenet?

Can I infer from this that you're one of the people who chooses not to observe
no-wake zones?

Joe Parsons


You can infer whatever pleases you. But that doesn't make your inference
correct or even proper.

Such an inference may well be incorrect; but it is certainly proper, in that it
is defensible.

Joe Parsons