Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service without
any knowledge of the product being sold.JD Powers serves are a reflection of
the consumers perception of the product. If the company does not purchase
the survey, they don't get ranked. JD Powers does not need to bias the
survey to be able to sell their service.

In 2002 Gould didn't like JD Powers but for a completely different reason.
It appears that Gould has had incorrect knowledge of JD Powers for a long
time. Gould wrote the following: The disciples of JD Powers will be
interested to know that the latest ratings
are now available.

In a press release dated Aug. 27, some of the claims made by Powers include:

1)" Bass and Ski/wakeboard boat owners report highest product satisfaction
and
fewest problems."
(Duh. Is that because these are the simplest boats?)

"Bass and ski/wakeboard boat owners reported experiencing an average of
fewer
than three problems with their boats during the first year of ownership,
while
cruiser boat owners report an average of nearly five problems in the first
year
of ownership.

(translation: bass boat owners had three "problems" and cruiser boat owners
had
four)


2) Ranger, Chaparral, Cobalt, Sea Ray, Grady White, Bennington and Correct
Craft rank highest for overall satisfaction in seven major boat segments.

3) Chaparral ranks highest in the small runabout segment, Bennington in the
pontoon boat segment, Correct Craft in the ski/wakeboard boat segment and
Sea
Ray in the express cruiser segment.

4) As with the 2001 study, the biggest quality concerns are associated with
the engines that power the boats. One third of new boat owners report engine
problems. While many of these problems are related to engine defects such as
oil leaks or difficult starts, consumers frequently cite that the engine
doesn't have enough power for the size of the boat. The study finds that
consumers who choose their own engines are significantly more satisfied with
engine performance than those who buy the boat-engine package.

(translation: Powers still doesn't realize that the same company is making
most
of the engines in boats. Powers does consider a boat with an undersized
engine
to have a "problem," and study results will imply that the boat itself is
somehow defectively built when the issue is really a question of the poor
choice of a cheaper, underpowered engine.)

5) Ranger ranks highest in the bas boat segment for the second consecutive
year, while Cobalt and Grady White repeat as the highest-ranked boats in the
large runabout and coastal fishing boat segments repsectively. Triton and
Skeeter closely follow Ranger in the Bass boat rankings. Crownline and Four
Winns follow Cobalt in the large runabout rankings, repsectively. Grady
White
is followed in the coastal fishing boat segment rankings by Scout and Boston
Whaler.

AND HERE'S A SHOCKER! (Probably relates directly to the number of people
who
are unhappy with the amount of HP the boat came with.....)

ONLY ONE-THIRD of all boat buyers reported "test driving" their boat before
purchase! Two-thirds do not! (No wonder they're so mad at the salespeople.
When
the boat turns out to be less powerful than expected, the situation has to
be
blamed on somebody, right?)

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service without
any knowledge of the product being sold.

It certainly is.

Ever have anything to do with JD Powers except fill out a survey?

Powers apologists might find this link very interesting:

http://www.zieglersupersystems.com/d.../bravehart.htm


There are a number of references to JD Powers, as well as observations that
some Powers surveys are useful to manufacturers seeking to terminate dealers
for a variety of reasons.

I would need to look into the comment that JD Powers is part owner of a company
that sells automobiles on the internet. This is the first I have heard of that.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

So what?
So, the only boat owners surveyed are those who own boats of companies who
purchase Powers' survey service. That's not a negative or a positive,
because that manufacturer won't be named in the survey or results.
As for the Bass and Ski/wakeboard boats scoring highest and maybe because
they are the simplest; maybe. The reason isn't mentioned and doesn't matter:
they are satisfied owners.
As for whether or not Powers realizes who makes the engines, it doesn't
matter in their survey; they only ask for satisfaction.
An underpowered (in the opinion of the surveyed owner) boat is a problem to
that owner.
As for the shocker about buyers not taking a test ride, well, that's the way
it is. Regardless of the reason many buyers don't take a test ride. I doubt
if they're mad at the salesperson unless they were actually lied to about
what to expect. They are probably just disappointed and wish they could have
afforded a bigger engine. Many of them probably wouldn't have been able to
buy a new boat if they wanted a bigger engine.
The real question is: who cares about the Powers survey?
Manufacturers who pay for it, because if they do well, they can advertise
the results.
Owners whose boats scored well, because it reinforces that they made a good
decision in buying the boat.
Shoppers who are looking for something to qualify or disqualify their choice
of boat.
And that's about it. I doubt that many people buy a boat just because it did
well in the survey, or didn't buy one because it didn't.


"Spam Me Please" wrote in message
news:cuapb.86387$Tr4.214100@attbi_s03...
This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service
without
any knowledge of the product being sold.JD Powers serves are a reflection
of
the consumers perception of the product. If the company does not purchase
the survey, they don't get ranked. JD Powers does not need to bias the
survey to be able to sell their service.

In 2002 Gould didn't like JD Powers but for a completely different reason.
It appears that Gould has had incorrect knowledge of JD Powers for a long
time. Gould wrote the following: The disciples of JD Powers will be
interested to know that the latest ratings
are now available.

In a press release dated Aug. 27, some of the claims made by Powers
include:

1)" Bass and Ski/wakeboard boat owners report highest product satisfaction
and
fewest problems."
(Duh. Is that because these are the simplest boats?)

"Bass and ski/wakeboard boat owners reported experiencing an average of
fewer
than three problems with their boats during the first year of ownership,
while
cruiser boat owners report an average of nearly five problems in the first
year
of ownership.

(translation: bass boat owners had three "problems" and cruiser boat
owners
had
four)


2) Ranger, Chaparral, Cobalt, Sea Ray, Grady White, Bennington and Correct
Craft rank highest for overall satisfaction in seven major boat segments.

3) Chaparral ranks highest in the small runabout segment, Bennington in
the
pontoon boat segment, Correct Craft in the ski/wakeboard boat segment and
Sea
Ray in the express cruiser segment.

4) As with the 2001 study, the biggest quality concerns are associated
with
the engines that power the boats. One third of new boat owners report
engine
problems. While many of these problems are related to engine defects such
as
oil leaks or difficult starts, consumers frequently cite that the engine
doesn't have enough power for the size of the boat. The study finds that
consumers who choose their own engines are significantly more satisfied
with
engine performance than those who buy the boat-engine package.

(translation: Powers still doesn't realize that the same company is making
most
of the engines in boats. Powers does consider a boat with an undersized
engine
to have a "problem," and study results will imply that the boat itself is
somehow defectively built when the issue is really a question of the poor
choice of a cheaper, underpowered engine.)

5) Ranger ranks highest in the bas boat segment for the second consecutive
year, while Cobalt and Grady White repeat as the highest-ranked boats in
the
large runabout and coastal fishing boat segments repsectively. Triton and
Skeeter closely follow Ranger in the Bass boat rankings. Crownline and
Four
Winns follow Cobalt in the large runabout rankings, repsectively. Grady
White
is followed in the coastal fishing boat segment rankings by Scout and
Boston
Whaler.

AND HERE'S A SHOCKER! (Probably relates directly to the number of people
who
are unhappy with the amount of HP the boat came with.....)

ONLY ONE-THIRD of all boat buyers reported "test driving" their boat
before
purchase! Two-thirds do not! (No wonder they're so mad at the salespeople.
When
the boat turns out to be less powerful than expected, the situation has to
be
blamed on somebody, right?)

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I guess Bayliner just didn't have enough money to ask JD Powers to run a
survey for them, because if they did Bayliner could have come in number one.
It really surprises me that SeaRay would payoff JD Powers to give them a
good review, but forget to tell it's sister company to hop on the bandwagon
of buying a good review.

I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service
without
any knowledge of the product being sold.

It certainly is.

Ever have anything to do with JD Powers except fill out a survey?

Powers apologists might find this link very interesting:

http://www.zieglersupersystems.com/d.../bravehart.htm


There are a number of references to JD Powers, as well as observations
that
some Powers surveys are useful to manufacturers seeking to terminate
dealers
for a variety of reasons.

I would need to look into the comment that JD Powers is part owner of a
company
that sells automobiles on the internet. This is the first I have heard of
that.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?



The only similarity between this and a political thread is the party that is
losing the argument based on issues keeps trying to swtich to personalities.
That's a consistent trend.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Can you provide any proof of your theory that JD Powers uses bias survey to
provide better results to the company who is "buying" the survey?

I guess whenever someone says they find your argument weak, you assume you
are winning the argument.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and
ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?



The only similarity between this and a political thread is the party that
is
losing the argument based on issues keeps trying to swtich to
personalities.
That's a consistent trend.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I guess whenever someone says they find your argument weak, you assume you
are winning the argument.

Whenever anybody begins name-calling and making disparaging personal remarks
rather than sticking to the issues, I *know* I'm winning the argument.

I just answered another of your "black helicopter" insults (the one you said I
shouldn't take personally). That's the 4th or 5th time you have stooped to
insult in this debate.

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think not.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

On 03 Nov 2003 02:21:05 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think not.

================================================== ======

Actually I can think of a good reason to continue the discussion:
It's been interesting. Is the Power's survey totally biased and
worthless? For all its real or perceived flaws, it's still better
than nothing. Clearly there is nothing in their reported results that
defy reason or common sense. Are their results totally suspect
because they are trying to make a living at what they do? Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers. Apparently Powers's
customers (the boat manufacturers) find the surveys useful, and not
just for advertising purposes. Do manufacturers use the surveys to
eliminate certain dealers? If so, that may be a good thing. How else
is a builder going to get that kind of information? THe public is
being well served if the builder gets rid of dealers with poor
customer satisfaction ratings.

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past. Or is there an issue
in the overall industry with the public getting to see this kind of
information? Builders (and dealers) who don't score well should do a
bit of introspection and see if an improved commitment to quality is
compatible with their business model. If not, they need to learn to
live and prosper with that position rather than try to shoot the
messenger.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Wayne, the fact that JD Powers makes money on their reputation, both with
consumers and the industry is all the reason to expect them NOT TO BIAS THE
SURVEY'S. Since their ability to get companies to pay for the use of the JD
Powers label, it must have an excellent reputation. Only a idiot with an
extremely short outlook would ever expect a company to sell their reputation
for $30,000,

I think Chuck knows this, but for some reason wants to slander an excellent
company.
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 03 Nov 2003 02:21:05 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand
just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think
not.

================================================== ======

Actually I can think of a good reason to continue the discussion:
It's been interesting. Is the Power's survey totally biased and
worthless? For all its real or perceived flaws, it's still better
than nothing. Clearly there is nothing in their reported results that
defy reason or common sense. Are their results totally suspect
because they are trying to make a living at what they do? Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers. Apparently Powers's
customers (the boat manufacturers) find the surveys useful, and not
just for advertising purposes. Do manufacturers use the surveys to
eliminate certain dealers? If so, that may be a good thing. How else
is a builder going to get that kind of information? THe public is
being well served if the builder gets rid of dealers with poor
customer satisfaction ratings.

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past. Or is there an issue
in the overall industry with the public getting to see this kind of
information? Builders (and dealers) who don't score well should do a
bit of introspection and see if an improved commitment to quality is
compatible with their business model. If not, they need to learn to
live and prosper with that position rather than try to shoot the
messenger.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past.

Close.

Never burned, but I have seen the shenanigans first hand.

Take the dealer who sent in a "change of address" for each customer shortly
after the sale. Mysteriously, all of his customers seemed to move to a post
office box number after buying a Brand X car. This guy went from so-so in the
satisfaction department to the glowing superstar of the district overnight.
Every single report was "completely satisfied" with just about everything. As a
result, his dealership got bonus shipments of models that were in short supply.
Mfgrs have been known use the results to determine allocation to dealers.
The guy finally got busted after about a year and a half. Disgruntled F&I
manager blew the whistle about the scam. I understand they threatened to pull
his franchise over the whole incident, but the bottom line was the guy was
selling cars like crazy. (You would be too, if your outstanding "satisfaction
rating" earned you a disproportionate number of the hard to get models)

Take the very common practice of the "free tank of gas if you'll let us help
you fill out the survey." Get the customer to bring the survey in, and agree
to address any of the issues the customer would otherwise mark as less than
satisfactory.

Then factor in the aspect of human nature that the guy who is truly satisfied
may or may not have anything to say about his experience. The guy who is ticked
off most definitely will. I have set in CSI reviews with factory reps demanding
to know why the dealership's rating had slipped a couple of points in a month.
Upon examing the individual returns, we'd find that maybe 125 people were
generally pleased and half a dozen or so hadn't (apparently) even bothered to
read the individual questions. In many cases, they just took a pen and would
draw a vertical line straight through all the vertically stacked "completely
unsatisfied" comments. When we'd investigate just why the customer was so
unhappy, about half the time it was because the factory had screwed something
up in the assembly of the car and that particular part had just failed the day
before the guy got the survey. Even though we'd be fixing it free, providing a
loaner, etc, some of these people felt that they had to "get even" for the
inconvenience. As a result, questions like, "How would you rate your sales
person's professionalism?" would get marked "completely unsatisfactory!"

I bought a new Volvo this year, from a local dealer who sells a lot of luxury
car lines. Volvo is the least expensive trademark they carry. (I bought the
least expensive Vovlo made). I was amused to see that nothing has changed in
the survey department. At delivery time, they stressed just how important the
survey I was going to receive was to the dealership.

After I had the car a few days, I got a call from the sales manager asking
whether I had any problem recommending the salesperson. "No, the salesperson
was pretty decent. No problem." The sales manager went on to tell me that a
significant portion of the salesman's income was a bonus that was determined by
how well each survey rated his performance. Bring on the guilt trip.

The day before I got the survey, I got a letter above the signature of one of
the upper level managers in the dealerhship organization. It was almost a plea.
"If there's any reason why you cannot mark us completley satisfactory in every
category, please contact us before you complete the survey and let us try to
make some arrangement to accomodate your concerns."

The opinions expressed by the customers are quite often influenced, and in
some cases very strongly and deliberately, by the selling dealer.

As far as the questions in the survey:
I have sat on dealer advisory councils where the wording of survey questions
and the order in which they should appear on the CSI survey have both been
discussed.
The results of those discussions certainly weren't binding on the survey
company, but somebody sure thought it was important to solicit our opinions. No
way in heck that anybody could say the subject, wording, and order of the
questions isn't ever a topic for discussion. There isn't a true "arm's length"
distance between the survey company and its customers (the manufacturers) that
would be required for the survey to be objective.




It has now been a number of years since these experiences, but I see nothing
that would lead me to suspect that the survey companies have changed tactics.


Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers.

The most blatant puff pieces ever written were never presented as objective,
scientific research. Just a matter of opinion.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Only a idiot with an
extremely short outlook would ever expect a company to sell their reputation
for $30,000,

Try reading for content. The $30,000 is just the price to participate in the
general survey. You want to use the Powers logo and implied endorsement in your
ad campaign? Pony up, podner.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

This sounds like an old ignorant bigot who says I knew so and so did such
and such, so all them people are just alike. They are all alike, I haven't
seen anything to make me change my mind about them.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past.

Close.

Never burned, but I have seen the shenanigans first hand.

Take the dealer who sent in a "change of address" for each customer
shortly
after the sale. Mysteriously, all of his customers seemed to move to a
post
office box number after buying a Brand X car. This guy went from so-so in
the
satisfaction department to the glowing superstar of the district
overnight.
Every single report was "completely satisfied" with just about everything.
As a
result, his dealership got bonus shipments of models that were in short
supply.
Mfgrs have been known use the results to determine allocation to dealers.
The guy finally got busted after about a year and a half. Disgruntled F&I
manager blew the whistle about the scam. I understand they threatened to
pull
his franchise over the whole incident, but the bottom line was the guy was
selling cars like crazy. (You would be too, if your outstanding
"satisfaction
rating" earned you a disproportionate number of the hard to get models)

Take the very common practice of the "free tank of gas if you'll let us
help
you fill out the survey." Get the customer to bring the survey in, and
agree
to address any of the issues the customer would otherwise mark as less
than
satisfactory.

Then factor in the aspect of human nature that the guy who is truly
satisfied
may or may not have anything to say about his experience. The guy who is
ticked
off most definitely will. I have set in CSI reviews with factory reps
demanding
to know why the dealership's rating had slipped a couple of points in a
month.
Upon examing the individual returns, we'd find that maybe 125 people were
generally pleased and half a dozen or so hadn't (apparently) even bothered
to
read the individual questions. In many cases, they just took a pen and
would
draw a vertical line straight through all the vertically stacked
"completely
unsatisfied" comments. When we'd investigate just why the customer was so
unhappy, about half the time it was because the factory had screwed
something
up in the assembly of the car and that particular part had just failed the
day
before the guy got the survey. Even though we'd be fixing it free,
providing a
loaner, etc, some of these people felt that they had to "get even" for the
inconvenience. As a result, questions like, "How would you rate your sales
person's professionalism?" would get marked "completely unsatisfactory!"

I bought a new Volvo this year, from a local dealer who sells a lot of
luxury
car lines. Volvo is the least expensive trademark they carry. (I bought
the
least expensive Vovlo made). I was amused to see that nothing has changed
in
the survey department. At delivery time, they stressed just how important
the
survey I was going to receive was to the dealership.

After I had the car a few days, I got a call from the sales manager asking
whether I had any problem recommending the salesperson. "No, the
salesperson
was pretty decent. No problem." The sales manager went on to tell me that
a
significant portion of the salesman's income was a bonus that was
determined by
how well each survey rated his performance. Bring on the guilt trip.

The day before I got the survey, I got a letter above the signature of one
of
the upper level managers in the dealerhship organization. It was almost a
plea.
"If there's any reason why you cannot mark us completley satisfactory in
every
category, please contact us before you complete the survey and let us try
to
make some arrangement to accomodate your concerns."

The opinions expressed by the customers are quite often influenced, and
in
some cases very strongly and deliberately, by the selling dealer.

As far as the questions in the survey:
I have sat on dealer advisory councils where the wording of survey
questions
and the order in which they should appear on the CSI survey have both been
discussed.
The results of those discussions certainly weren't binding on the survey
company, but somebody sure thought it was important to solicit our
opinions. No
way in heck that anybody could say the subject, wording, and order of the
questions isn't ever a topic for discussion. There isn't a true "arm's
length"
distance between the survey company and its customers (the manufacturers)
that
would be required for the survey to be objective.




It has now been a number of years since these experiences, but I see
nothing
that would lead me to suspect that the survey companies have changed
tactics.


Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers.

The most blatant puff pieces ever written were never presented as
objective,
scientific research. Just a matter of opinion.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

According to JD Powers, a company does not have to pay anything to have
their boat included in the general survey. Try reading for content.

Have you ever made a mistake and said, well I guess I was wrong?

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Only a idiot with an
extremely short outlook would ever expect a company to sell their
reputation
for $30,000,

Try reading for content. The $30,000 is just the price to participate in
the
general survey. You want to use the Powers logo and implied endorsement in
your
ad campaign? Pony up, podner.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Sounds to me like "spam me" has a vested interest, and a few others are
in denial that upstanding dealers and manufacturers could be
manipulating the survey, and that the survey company plays along. Sort
of like those magazine reviews, where you have to really really read
between the lines to figure out the bad stuff, but the good stuff is in
17 point bold. And then a couple of years later there is the article
that says "that was a piece of junk when we tested it".

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 02 Nov 2003 21:57:53 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at
Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or
another
by negative survey results sometime in the past. Or is there an
issue
in the overall industry with the public getting to see this kind of
information? Builders (and dealers) who don't score well should do a
bit of introspection and see if an improved commitment to quality is
compatible with their business model. If not, they need to learn to
live and prosper with that position rather than try to shoot the
messenger.

Yes, there is clearly the sound of Chuck's Ox being gored.

Or.. maybe something is hitting home for some reason.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

Never burned, but I have seen the shenanigans first hand.

Take the dealer who sent in a "change of address" for each customer
shortly
after the sale. Mysteriously, all of his customers seemed to move to a
post
office box number after buying a Brand X car. This guy went from so-so in
the
satisfaction department to the glowing superstar of the district
overnight.
Every single report was "completely satisfied" with just about everything.



The JD Powers survey form that I received (automotive) did not ask who the
dealer was.

Dealers do not send in changes of address, a boatowner would have to
notify his state's license and boat registration department, and perhaps his
loan holder.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

The JD Powers survey form that I received (automotive) did not ask who the
dealer was.

Dealers do not send in changes of address, a boatowner would have to
notify his state's license and boat registration department, and perhaps his
loan holder.

The factory provides the mailing list to the survey company, based on delivery
reports and warranty activations from dealers. Teh mailing list has nothing to
do with the leinholder or DMV. Under the scheme this particular dishonest
organization used, the DMV, the lender, and the customer were all unaware that
CSI survey info (and recalls) were being intercepted by the seller.

The other common trick, "Bring your survey in to us and we'll give you a tank
of gas" resulted in a whole lot of surveys that never made it to the mailbox in
the end.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

According to JD Powers, a company does not have to pay anything to have
their boat included in the general survey. Try reading for content.

Have you ever made a mistake and said, well I guess I was wrong?

You're right. The company only has to pay money if they want access to the
survey results. There is no charge to have your boat appear as an also ran if
you don't want to know how the results are running before the survey is
released to the public.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Yes, there is clearly the sound of Chuck's Ox being gored.

Or.. maybe something is hitting home for some reason.

What? More fan mail from the guy who just claimed he "seldom sees" my posts?
Isn't this the third or fourth personal comment today? Several based on wild
speculations such as this? And, as ever, *no* discussion of the subject at
hand. And all this after the recent, obvious lie that he had me "filtered"?
Maybe I should be flattered. This guy seems to be fixated on a handful of
personalities. How does one get so lucky?

Last guy I knew that was named Wally came from a tiny little town called Fort
Young, Wisconsin. As I recall, he wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar. It was easy
to remember his place of birth with three simple initials:

FY, W.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

The only wild accusation is the one made by you concerning JD Powers. You
have slandered a company based upon your knowledge of how someone has
manipulated survey data from another company. You have stated you know that
JD Powers manipulates questions on the survey to highlight the benefits of
the company paying for the report, yet you have no proof of any such
behavior. I do not work for any survey company, the only interest I have is
not allowing someone to slander a reputable company without asking for some
proof. So far all you have said is I know that some people have used tricks
to get them better results on their CSI, which I agree can be done.

NOW SHOW US ONE JD POWER SURVEY THAT HAS BEEN MANIPULATED TO HIGHLIGHT THE
FEATURES AND BENEFITS OF THE COMPANY "PAYING FOR THE SURVEY" to the
determent of the other companies listed on the survey.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Yes, there is clearly the sound of Chuck's Ox being gored.

Or.. maybe something is hitting home for some reason.

What? More fan mail from the guy who just claimed he "seldom sees" my
posts?
Isn't this the third or fourth personal comment today? Several based on
wild
speculations such as this? And, as ever, *no* discussion of the subject at
hand. And all this after the recent, obvious lie that he had me
"filtered"?
Maybe I should be flattered. This guy seems to be fixated on a handful of
personalities. How does one get so lucky?

Last guy I knew that was named Wally came from a tiny little town called
Fort
Young, Wisconsin. As I recall, he wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar. It was
easy
to remember his place of birth with three simple initials:

FY, W.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

A wise man once said "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate
the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise
the other". (Mathew 6:24)

Applicability of this quote to the situation under consideration is left as
an exercise for the reader.

del

"Spam Me Please" wrote in message
news:7Zqpb.92814$Fm2.77913@attbi_s04...
The only wild accusation is the one made by you concerning JD Powers. You
have slandered a company based upon your knowledge of how someone has
manipulated survey data from another company. You have stated you know
that
JD Powers manipulates questions on the survey to highlight the benefits of
the company paying for the report, yet you have no proof of any such
behavior. I do not work for any survey company, the only interest I have
is
not allowing someone to slander a reputable company without asking for
some
proof. So far all you have said is I know that some people have used
tricks
to get them better results on their CSI, which I agree can be done.

NOW SHOW US ONE JD POWER SURVEY THAT HAS BEEN MANIPULATED TO HIGHLIGHT THE
FEATURES AND BENEFITS OF THE COMPANY "PAYING FOR THE SURVEY" to the
determent of the other companies listed on the survey.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Yes, there is clearly the sound of Chuck's Ox being gored.

Or.. maybe something is hitting home for some reason.

What? More fan mail from the guy who just claimed he "seldom sees" my
posts?
Isn't this the third or fourth personal comment today? Several based on
wild
speculations such as this? And, as ever, *no* discussion of the subject
at
hand. And all this after the recent, obvious lie that he had me
"filtered"?
Maybe I should be flattered. This guy seems to be fixated on a handful
of
personalities. How does one get so lucky?

Last guy I knew that was named Wally came from a tiny little town called
Fort
Young, Wisconsin. As I recall, he wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar. It
was
easy
to remember his place of birth with three simple initials:

FY, W.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I have expressed my opinion, and mentioned some actual experiences that cuase
me to distrust the results of satisfaction surveys. We have examined statements
directly from JD Powers stating that they charge a fee to mfgrs to get the
survey information. We have examined a statement directly from JD Powers that
says the "winner has the option" to pay JD Powers a ton of dough to use the JD
Powers name in advertising.

If you're looking for the silver bullet- a statement from JD Powers that says,
"Since we can sell the right to use our name for some pretty big dough, it
makes sense for our winners to be predisposed to
making such a purchase. We know which companies are willing to make that sort
of investment in their marketing based upon our existing business
relationships......" I can't furnish one, for obvious reasons.

If you're looking for a silver bullet from a manufacturer who publicly admits
lobbying for certain questions to be included or ommitted from a survey, once
again I don't have one. Who would say, "Yeah, we came out #1, but that was
because we managed to avoid very many satisfaction questions that dealt with
this subject or that...we really did stink in those areas last year."?

Glad to see you're so demanding in your burden of proof. I can only assume that
in your desire to avoid being the biggest hypocrite in sight, you'll restrict
your own opinions and conclusions to the same standard. "Unless its admitted by
the party accused, it can't be true." That's a pretty tight standard. It will
let the wind out of some of the personal comments you cannot seem to avoid
making when you
do whatever it is you're doing that is your version of a reasonable debate.

Why not use your usual screen name?
Ashamed?

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

You must not have had any experience in the real world, the winner of the
bogus survey would not be yelling, it would be the loser. No manufacturer
has ever accused JD Powers of using biased surveys. All we have is a
disgruntled used car salesman with an opinion.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I have expressed my opinion, and mentioned some actual experiences that
cuase
me to distrust the results of satisfaction surveys. We have examined
statements
directly from JD Powers stating that they charge a fee to mfgrs to get the
survey information. We have examined a statement directly from JD Powers
that
says the "winner has the option" to pay JD Powers a ton of dough to use
the JD
Powers name in advertising.

If you're looking for the silver bullet- a statement from JD Powers that
says,
"Since we can sell the right to use our name for some pretty big dough, it
makes sense for our winners to be predisposed to
making such a purchase. We know which companies are willing to make that
sort
of investment in their marketing based upon our existing business
relationships......" I can't furnish one, for obvious reasons.

If you're looking for a silver bullet from a manufacturer who publicly
admits
lobbying for certain questions to be included or ommitted from a survey,
once
again I don't have one. Who would say, "Yeah, we came out #1, but that was
because we managed to avoid very many satisfaction questions that dealt
with
this subject or that...we really did stink in those areas last year."?

Glad to see you're so demanding in your burden of proof. I can only assume
that
in your desire to avoid being the biggest hypocrite in sight, you'll
restrict
your own opinions and conclusions to the same standard. "Unless its
admitted by
the party accused, it can't be true." That's a pretty tight standard. It
will
let the wind out of some of the personal comments you cannot seem to avoid
making when you
do whatever it is you're doing that is your version of a reasonable
debate.

Why not use your usual screen name?
Ashamed?

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

You must not have had any experience in the real world, the winner of the
bogus survey would not be yelling, it would be the loser.

And by your standards, if the loser yelled you would dismiss it as "unproven"
without a direct admission from Powers or the winner.

No manufacturer
has ever accused JD Powers of using biased surveys.

Manufacturer. Key word. No manufacturer has dared to publicly accuse JD Powers
of accepting suggestions regarding the nature and content of the questions.
(Which is all I ever said was done)

All we have is a
disgruntled used car salesman with an opinion.

And an anonymous handle long ago out of ammunition and reduced to throwing
turds.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Gould, your logic is: a survey can be biased, JD Powers is in business to
make money, hence they are biasing the survey to allow the person who will
pay the most to win. That is a strong stand without any proof or even a
copy of a survey showing bias. You stated all you have to do is look at
Cobalt's survey to see the bias, when I asked you for a copy of the survey,
you admitted you did not have one.

It would not only be a manufacture, it would be competing survey companies,
including CR who would be screaming foul. Without a survey showing bias,
all you have is a totally unfounded "feeling". I am repulsed when anyone
slanders someone else without any facts. You have gotten so used to using
that logic in your political discussions that you think it is an acceptable
debate tactic.

It sounds just like the tabloids accusing Jon Benet Ramsey's parents of
murder without any facts.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You must not have had any experience in the real world, the winner of the
bogus survey would not be yelling, it would be the loser.

And by your standards, if the loser yelled you would dismiss it as
"unproven"
without a direct admission from Powers or the winner.

No manufacturer
has ever accused JD Powers of using biased surveys.

Manufacturer. Key word. No manufacturer has dared to publicly accuse JD
Powers
of accepting suggestions regarding the nature and content of the
questions.
(Which is all I ever said was done)

All we have is a
disgruntled used car salesman with an opinion.

And an anonymous handle long ago out of ammunition and reduced to throwing
turds.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Heck, when you hear from others (with experience in designing survey's) and
who have actually completed the survey, who agree JD Powers survey's are not
biased, your response is that they are biased in their opinion.

I guess you are the one person whose opinion matters.

Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
You must not have had any experience in the real world, the winner of the
bogus survey would not be yelling, it would be the loser.

And by your standards, if the loser yelled you would dismiss it as
"unproven"
without a direct admission from Powers or the winner.

No manufacturer
has ever accused JD Powers of using biased surveys.

Manufacturer. Key word. No manufacturer has dared to publicly accuse JD
Powers
of accepting suggestions regarding the nature and content of the
questions.
(Which is all I ever said was done)

All we have is a
disgruntled used car salesman with an opinion.

And an anonymous handle long ago out of ammunition and reduced to throwing
turds.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Gould 0738 wrote:

And an anonymous handle long ago out of ammunition and reduced to throwing
turds.

Suppose my handle was not anonymous and I threw turds, would that be OK?

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I think I just won this argument. ; )

At least according to Gould I have.

"Charles" wrote in message
...


Gould 0738 wrote:

And an anonymous handle long ago out of ammunition and reduced to
throwing
turds.

Suppose my handle was not anonymous and I threw turds, would that be OK?

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000
Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
=---

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Suppose my handle was not anonymous and I threw turds, would that be OK?

-- Charlie


It would be slightly less offensive than a guy (gal?) hiding behind a cloak of
anonymity and launching personal insults.

If you want to say something about another poster, say it to his or her face,
IMO. Skulking around with no identity and posting insults is doubly low. Almost
as close to the bottom of the barrel as posting nonstop insults at a NG member
and then
"filtering" that person's responses- (that's a little girlie trick if ever
there was).

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

I think I just won this argument. ; )

At least according to Gould I have.

No, Spankme, it's the *first* person to reduce the level opf debate to personal
attacks.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

So as long as someone keeps repeating the same lie over and over again, but
they do not mention the intelligence level of their opponent then they will
win. Kewl.

What if I calmly mention that I think you are Hitler's stepchild?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I think I just won this argument. ; )

At least according to Gould I have.

No, Spankme, it's the *first* person to reduce the level opf debate to
personal
attacks.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

What if I calmly mention that I think you are Hitler's stepchild?

It would be as valid as the rest of your perceptions. Go right ahead.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

(Smile) So you still believe JD Powers biases their survey? Can you show us
an example of a biased survey or it just come to you in a flash?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
What if I calmly mention that I think you are Hitler's stepchild?

It would be as valid as the rest of your perceptions. Go right ahead.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

(Smile) So you still believe JD Powers biases their survey? Can you show us
an example of a biased survey or it just come to you in a flash?



I have outlined my reasons, Butch.
You disagree that where there is smoke there is likely a fire. So be it.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html

The link above might be helpful with in other discussions you have.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
(Smile) So you still believe JD Powers biases their survey? Can you show
us
an example of a biased survey or it just come to you in a flash?



I have outlined my reasons, Butch.
You disagree that where there is smoke there is likely a fire. So be it.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Butch wrote:

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html

The link above might be helpful with in other discussions you have.

You know, it's one thing to disagree.
What's with the vendetta?

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

This sounds like an old ignorant bigot who says I knew so and so did such

He who is reduced to throwing turds is losing.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

That is my point exactly, what is with your vendetta against JD Powers?
Without any proof you take a strong position that they would ruin their
reputation by selling the results to the highest bidder. The only reason
anyone would be willing to pay for the survey and be willing to pay for the
right to use the ad logo is because their information is statistically
accurate.

On a feeling, you are willing to state they are crooks. That is pretty low.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Butch wrote:

http://www.cjnetworks.com/~cubsfan/conspiracy.html

The link above might be helpful with in other discussions you have.

You know, it's one thing to disagree.
What's with the vendetta?

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

That is my point exactly, what is with your vendetta against JD Powers?

I don't have a vendetta aganst JDP. But I don't put any credibility in the
survey responses because they are a commercial product, designed to be sold to
the "winner" in each category. (See the previous statement from the Powers guy
in this same thread).

Without any proof you take a strong position that they would ruin their
reputation by selling the results to the highest bidder.

Without any proof, I can voice my strong opinion. Yeah.

The only reason
anyone would be willing to pay for the survey and be willing to pay for the
right to use the ad logo is because their information is statistically
accurate.

How many people are willing to pay to publicize that a competitor got a higher
satisfaction rating?

Not to mention that the surveys are misunderstood and misused. You yourself
asked, "Why wouldn't Cobalt be number one? Aren't they the best boat?" I hate
to break this to ya, but the Powers Survey does not establish nor claim to
establish which product is the best. It measures responses to very carefully
constructed questions, (very carefully indeed), and reports which customers
were the *most* satisfied. Wouldn't matter in the end if the
scores of the top five contenders are all within a half percent of each other
and well into the 90's.

Some guy can buy a real crap of a product, but if the survey questions
concentrate on "how well did the dealer treat you?" "was the product ready for
delivery on time?" "did anybody from the dealership call you after delivery to
answer and questions and make sure you were completely happy?" and that dealer
group
strives to overcome a poor product with strong customer service, the right sort
of survey will show that product in a very favorable light.

How do 99% of the people interpret the survey? They look at it as if were
comparing products, rather than a combination of the product and the
purchasing/ ownership experience.

One of the great beneifts of having a different winner most years will be
having a brand new buyer for the rights to use the Powers logo and claim to be
#1.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

The more you post the more you show how little you know about the survey's.
All auto's are giving the same or basically the same survey. They do not
change them so one company will stand out, they do not change them so they
can have different winners each year, in fact, Toyota and Lexus have a
consistent history of having excellent ratings on JD Powers.

If someone says they think they are being followed by black helicopters they
have the right to that opinion, but it does not make it a fact.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

That is my point exactly, what is with your vendetta against JD Powers?

I don't have a vendetta aganst JDP. But I don't put any credibility in the
survey responses because they are a commercial product, designed to be
sold to
the "winner" in each category. (See the previous statement from the Powers
guy
in this same thread).

Without any proof you take a strong position that they would ruin their
reputation by selling the results to the highest bidder.

Without any proof, I can voice my strong opinion. Yeah.

The only reason
anyone would be willing to pay for the survey and be willing to pay for
the
right to use the ad logo is because their information is statistically
accurate.

How many people are willing to pay to publicize that a competitor got a
higher
satisfaction rating?

Not to mention that the surveys are misunderstood and misused. You
yourself
asked, "Why wouldn't Cobalt be number one? Aren't they the best boat?" I
hate
to break this to ya, but the Powers Survey does not establish nor claim to
establish which product is the best. It measures responses to very
carefully
constructed questions, (very carefully indeed), and reports which
customers
were the *most* satisfied. Wouldn't matter in the end if the
scores of the top five contenders are all within a half percent of each
other
and well into the 90's.

Some guy can buy a real crap of a product, but if the survey questions
concentrate on "how well did the dealer treat you?" "was the product ready
for
delivery on time?" "did anybody from the dealership call you after
delivery to
answer and questions and make sure you were completely happy?" and that
dealer
group
strives to overcome a poor product with strong customer service, the right
sort
of survey will show that product in a very favorable light.

How do 99% of the people interpret the survey? They look at it as if were
comparing products, rather than a combination of the product and the
purchasing/ ownership experience.

One of the great beneifts of having a different winner most years will be
having a brand new buyer for the rights to use the Powers logo and claim
to be
#1.

Misunderstandings concerning JD Powers
 

Just coming across my desk:

The October 30, 2003 press release from Sea Ray. Proud to be the winners of the
JD Power award for express cruisers.

And take nothing away from Sea Ray, they are a very decent boat. If they built
a trawler and I were in the market for a new boat, I'd take a careful look at
one.

Paragraph three. Read this very carefully and give all words equal weight. It
could easily be interpreted as a statement that
the scoring was based on a combination of
a high level of overall satisfaction reported, as well as the answers to two
questions specifically selected from the batch.

Paragrah three, verbatim:

"The new findings demonstrated that Sea Ray owners were among those with the
highest confidence that the company would stand behind the products," acording
to the study directors at J.D. Power and Associates. The findings also showed
that Sea Ray owners were most likely to say they would recommend purchasing a
Sea Ray and were most likely to repurchase another boat from Sea Ray for
themselves."

"Among"?

Last I looked, if you outscored everybody in sight, you weren't considered to
be "among" the winners. You won.

Once again, it's just smoke. No way to prove there's a fire. :-)