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Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 8:43 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 7:39 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:58:03 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:49 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:09:14 -0400, John H. wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:26:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 11:02 AM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:23:18 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured: A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is.. P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances inside the microwave oven. === Whoo hoo! 'Airree discovered Power Factor, well known to EEs of course, which is why most high powered AC electrical devices are rated in KVA instead of KW. For bonus points explain why inductors create a phase difference between voltage and current. Eli the ice man. For even extra credit Harry, please explain when current leads voltage and when voltage leads current and what types of loads causes this. For our purposes of the microwave discussion, it can pretty much be ignored anyway. Power Factor becomes a concern in manufacturing plants when there are, as you say, many high powered electrical devices to be used. You'll have to give him some time to find a cut'n'pasteable response. === Heh, isn't that the truth. Cosine theta indeed! :-) It's of no interest to me. === I have no doubt, and all of those electrons out there are the better for it. By the way, lack of curiosity is the mark of a dullard. I think we should give him a break. He was just trying to be one of the guys. === Maybe, but I can't remember the last time he gave us a break, and him quoting power Factor theory was about the funniest thing he'd ever written. Long live cosine theta! That be true. |
Betsy displays some sense!
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Betsy displays some sense!
True North wrote:
Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. That's typical. That's also why you have lost your ass "upgrading" boats. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote: Wayne.B - show quoted text - ===Â* "I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winterÂ* time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time." No such thing as "too cold for outdoor activity". You just need the proper clothing or gear. I thought you were from upstate New York? The issue is "proper clothes". A lot of us have contempt for clothes. You can get away with it from about 50 to around 100F http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Oregon/Mt%2...0Mt%20Hood.jpg I do understand dressing for the weather tho. http://gfretwell.com/ftp/7%20Springs/Greg%20Skiing.jpg |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 18:59:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:45 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:50:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:22 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:24:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power. Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14 amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts "in" to produce 1200 watts "out". Very reasonable and believable readings to me. Not sure about a Honda inverter but my Briggs did not have that ugly a wave form at pretty much full load http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg I don't know the details of an inverter generator design but from what I understand they are not dissimilar to a DC to AC inverter or switching power supplies. Initially the output is a modified square wave but is then smoothed into a decent sine wave. Honda and other manufacturers of inverter generators make a big deal about this. There is no big generator coil in an inverter. No scope? Nope. Lent it to a guy and never saw it again. Nice one too. Tektronix 2445B dual trace that I bought on eBay for cheap bucks. It worked fine. If you search around Honda and some other inverter generator manufacturers have posted images of the waveform for their generators. Look pretty good. I gave that scope in the picture to Wayne. I am sorry I didn't pluck a few more out of the dumpster when IBM was throwing them away. (Harvey Johnson the daddy of the AFCI and my dutch buddy got one too) The 453 is a nice portable with fairly respectable credentials. I had one in my car for almost 3 decades and I can make it dance ;-) I have his big brother the 465 on my electronics bench. (little better bandwidth and a whole lot better display) http://gfretwell.com/electrical/CFL%...0a%20scope.jpg BTW, that is a current transformer hanging on an AC load That was part of a little science project I did on CT transformers. How I will be measuring current on my generator with junk meters http://gfretwell.com/electrical/CT%20fun/ "Stay thirsty for knowledge my friend" -A bearded American |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:01:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 6:02 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote: Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg.Â* We both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least in generators. For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can afford or want and be happy with it.Â* A whole house generator like Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for them is so rare. Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more miles on me)Â* I may spring for a whole house generator.Â* They are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week. Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years. We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you seem to like to do. First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a whole house generator. Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching inÂ* ;-) === I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time. Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and evening.Â* Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like you, but I like those temps. Ah ... bike trails, horseback riding, tennis ... all appropriate activities for people in their 70's - 80's. Why not? Although I think horses are too stupid to ride but I will if I have to. I know how I also prefer hiking to biking but they are all appropriate for me in the next decade. Tennis is OK. I might have trouble in 10 years covering the court but I bet I will still be able to bring up a bruise with my serve. I also bet Mrs E will be riding for 30-40 more years. I haven't met the lady but she seems like someone who will still be out there getting it done when we are all "off to a better place" (or just buried in the yard with my dogs, in my case) Maybe I misunderstood |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:03:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H. wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3 "The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain." Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant. There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators. About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8? They must have stronger horses in China With no losses considered: 8 hp = 5.96Kw 11 hp = 8.2Kw I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp. I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got from Home Depot: https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150 gallon tank and that is not very precise. After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my generator using my convection oven as the load. This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I could take pictures. I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably need a bigger generator. :-) I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the generator never tripped. I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main reason they are so noisy. My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a long time, mostly heat water for coffee. The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove, built in microwave is rated at. I purposely shopped for the lowest wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the smallest. It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320 watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power. 1320 watts is within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts. That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave with the input required to produce it. The large microwave was drawing slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's at least 1920 watts. The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous output and 2000 watts "surge". So to run the large microwave the Honda was running near or at it's surge rating continuously. Not good. That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on a dedicated 20a circuit. It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about it's microwave output power. It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had previously thought. As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service requirement of 120vac at 1.64 Kw. Output is listed as 1000 watts. So, it draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16 amps (briefly) on Honda power. So, on house power: 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out. Makes sense to me. 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"? Any energy that is not going to the load (food in this case) is waste. You have to assume the radiated power *mostly* ends up in the food so anything else is waste. The first thing you need to know when you are computing the HVAC load (heat) in a computer room is the power coming in. (AKA sensible heat) It is roughly 3400 BTU per KH and you assume all electricity coming in goes out as heat so you are saying your microwave is pumping 2217.89 BTU in the air the whole time it is running ... plus what it does heating the food? Sorry I was an Installation Planning Rep too ;-) I really think if all of that was true you could cook another hot dog on the fan. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H. wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3 "The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain." Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant. There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators. About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8? They must have stronger horses in China With no losses considered: 8 hp = 5.96Kw 11 hp = 8.2Kw I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp. I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got from Home Depot: https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150 gallon tank and that is not very precise. After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my generator using my convection oven as the load. This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I could take pictures. I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably need a bigger generator. :-) I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the generator never tripped. I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main reason they are so noisy. My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a long time, mostly heat water for coffee. Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a problem for the 2000 watter. John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200 watt microwave. I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are designed to run on 15 amp circuits. Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but none if it has a plug on it. I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"? I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14 ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp. Have the codes changed? No. A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2. There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential. Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends that to residential. The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience, not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design". Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes any wall space 24" or wider. In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle. This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to describe. Damn lawyers ;-) 210.52 is one of the more confusing articles. I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ? That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment) There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device (receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per the NRTL ; like U/L) The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up. (and remain in a safe condition) You dealt with labs, You know that stuff. Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16. That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA 5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:31:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 18:02:23 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote: Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least in generators. For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for them is so rare. Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week. Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years. We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you seem to like to do. First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a whole house generator. Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching in ;-) === I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time. Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and evening. Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like you, but I like those temps. === We'd all enjoy seeing a picture of you on horseback, preferably at full gallop with your arms and legs flapping in the breeze. :-) Let me know more about those 60 degree days after you've spent a few more winter months there. He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:33:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: Yes indeed, and upstate NY is a good place to be from. I always get confused about NY. I am never sure what is upstate, downstate or something else. I lived in Kingston and Binghampton/Endicott/Union. I was never sure where I was. I know I got snowed on 11/10/79 and it sucked. I also lost a ball on my drive on #1 at the IBM course in Endicott. It landed in the snow and I did not look for it ;-) |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 7:39 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:58:03 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:49 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:09:14 -0400, John H. wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:26:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 11:02 AM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:23:18 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured: A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is.. P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances inside the microwave oven. === Whoo hoo! 'Airree discovered Power Factor, well known to EEs of course, which is why most high powered AC electrical devices are rated in KVA instead of KW. For bonus points explain why inductors create a phase difference between voltage and current. Eli the ice man. For even extra credit Harry, please explain when current leads voltage and when voltage leads current and what types of loads causes this. For our purposes of the microwave discussion, it can pretty much be ignored anyway. Power Factor becomes a concern in manufacturing plants when there are, as you say, many high powered electrical devices to be used. You'll have to give him some time to find a cut'n'pasteable response. === Heh, isn't that the truth. Cosine theta indeed! :-) It's of no interest to me. === I have no doubt, and all of those electrons out there are the better for it. By the way, lack of curiosity is the mark of a dullard. I think we should give him a break. He was just trying to be one of the guys. I was happy he was learning a little about our trade. Knowledge is always a good thing |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/18 10:10 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:01:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 6:02 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote: Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg.Â* We both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least in generators. For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can afford or want and be happy with it.Â* A whole house generator like Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for them is so rare. Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more miles on me)Â* I may spring for a whole house generator.Â* They are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week. Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years. We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you seem to like to do. First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a whole house generator. Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching inÂ* ;-) === I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time. Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and evening.Â* Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like you, but I like those temps. Ah ... bike trails, horseback riding, tennis ... all appropriate activities for people in their 70's - 80's. Why not? Although I think horses are too stupid to ride but I will if I have to. I know how I also prefer hiking to biking but they are all appropriate for me in the next decade. Tennis is OK. I might have trouble in 10 years covering the court but I bet I will still be able to bring up a bruise with my serve. I also bet Mrs E will be riding for 30-40 more years. I haven't met the lady but she seems like someone who will still be out there getting it done when we are all "off to a better place" (or just buried in the yard with my dogs, in my case) Maybe I misunderstood I ride my bike two or three times a week in the fall and spring, once a week in the summer when it is usually too hot for my taste. Sometimes I ride from where we live to the end of Chesapeake Beach. I suppose I could do it Luddite's way, on a motor scooter. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 00:10:06 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: True North wrote: Wayne.B - show quoted text - ===Â* "I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winterÂ* time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time." No such thing as "too cold for outdoor activity". You just need the proper clothing or gear. I thought you were from upstate New York? H was smart enough to move from where it snows. Snow is nice for a weekend visit. Not to live in that crap. Snow is OK Sunny and nice is OK I can even live with rain if it gets that **** over with and the sun comes out The one that bothers me is "sleet and freezing rain". Unfortunately that is all too common in DC. I worked nights and that sleet turned to black ice around 0400 and it was always "fun" in a "scare the **** out of you" sort of way. My car has been a ballistic hockey puck far more than once. Fortunately everyone else was in bed and there wasn't much to hit. You do get a lot of skid recovery practice. The trick is drive the car into the direction it is going and when the tires finally start turning, make small corrections until you are safe. There are no grand maneuvers. ... until you maneuver your ass south. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT), True NorthÂ* wrote:Â* - show quoted text - "The issue is "proper clothes". A lot of us have contempt for clothes.Â* You can get away with it from about 50 to around 100FÂ* http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Oregon/Mt%2...t%20Hood.jpgÂ* I do understand dressing for the weather tho.Â* http://gfretwell.com/ftp/7%20Springs/Greg%20Skiing.jpg" Around here we have about 6 seasons and I have good jackets and work jackets for each. Wife is always complaining that I hog too much of the front closet.....not enough room for all of her jackets. |
Betsy displays some sense!
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 8:50 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" - show quoted text - 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. ............ Lol! That’s one thing fun about my vintage guitar amps. They’d get hot, you could almost melt marshmallows over them. Think tubes. And I mean, toooobs! Yeah "tubes" was when we thought the TV was the biggest user of electricity ... and it might have been close if you had nat gas appliances. I was lucky that tubes were really just starting go away when I got into the computer biz. I still carried a 25L6 and a 2D21 in my tool bag. I did to a mail away electronic course when I was a kid where we made a series of things ending up with an AM radio using the box of parts we got each week. That was tubes. In the days I attended ET school in the Navy tubes and tube circuitry composed about 80 percent of the classes and school phases. It was good though because it covered all the components required to make them do their job and the theory and math behind them. It wasn't until the last few phases that they got into digital circuits, op-amps and TTL (5v) logic. CMOS and full circuit integrated "chips" were still unheard of in those days. Later, when attending civilian schools tubes were treated more as historical artifacts but the circuit theory and component theory remained much the same. I had a leg up on most of the people in the classes I took, thanks to the Navy. I went to NCR computer school before the service, so was transistor trained. Tubes were the stuff you went down to the market and tested from the TV and the oscillator tube that the Chevy radio used to generate the different voltage in the radio. Most of my Air Force was tubes. Really powerful tubes. TACAN which had about 3000 watt dummy load on low voltage. 5000V on the tube. And then airborne radars, which were pretty much tubes in the 1960’s and a Magnetron. |
Betsy displays some sense!
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 18:59:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:45 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:50:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:22 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:24:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power. Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14 amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts "in" to produce 1200 watts "out". Very reasonable and believable readings to me. Not sure about a Honda inverter but my Briggs did not have that ugly a wave form at pretty much full load http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg I don't know the details of an inverter generator design but from what I understand they are not dissimilar to a DC to AC inverter or switching power supplies. Initially the output is a modified square wave but is then smoothed into a decent sine wave. Honda and other manufacturers of inverter generators make a big deal about this. There is no big generator coil in an inverter. No scope? Nope. Lent it to a guy and never saw it again. Nice one too. Tektronix 2445B dual trace that I bought on eBay for cheap bucks. It worked fine. If you search around Honda and some other inverter generator manufacturers have posted images of the waveform for their generators. Look pretty good. I gave that scope in the picture to Wayne. I am sorry I didn't pluck a few more out of the dumpster when IBM was throwing them away. (Harvey Johnson the daddy of the AFCI and my dutch buddy got one too) The 453 is a nice portable with fairly respectable credentials. I had one in my car for almost 3 decades and I can make it dance ;-) I have his big brother the 465 on my electronics bench. (little better bandwidth and a whole lot better display) http://gfretwell.com/electrical/CFL%...0a%20scope.jpg BTW, that is a current transformer hanging on an AC load That was part of a little science project I did on CT transformers. How I will be measuring current on my generator with junk meters http://gfretwell.com/electrical/CT%20fun/ "Stay thirsty for knowledge my friend" -A bearded American I loaned my really nice portable Tektronix field service scope to a buddy who was doing contracting about 20 years ago. Needed it a while back, but do not know if still works. He passed away 3 months ago, so may ask his wife it is still around. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:39:02 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 18:59:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:45 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:50:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:22 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:24:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power. Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14 amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts "in" to produce 1200 watts "out". Very reasonable and believable readings to me. Not sure about a Honda inverter but my Briggs did not have that ugly a wave form at pretty much full load http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg I don't know the details of an inverter generator design but from what I understand they are not dissimilar to a DC to AC inverter or switching power supplies. Initially the output is a modified square wave but is then smoothed into a decent sine wave. Honda and other manufacturers of inverter generators make a big deal about this. There is no big generator coil in an inverter. No scope? Nope. Lent it to a guy and never saw it again. Nice one too. Tektronix 2445B dual trace that I bought on eBay for cheap bucks. It worked fine. If you search around Honda and some other inverter generator manufacturers have posted images of the waveform for their generators. Look pretty good. === The real test is to feed them into a highly inductive load and then see what happens to the waveform. I had a brand new 9KW Kohler gen on our old Bertram 33, not even an inverter gen. When the Heart Interface charger started pulling serious amps, the waveform would go to hell, the generator would act up until the charging stopped, and that would go back and forth in this weird oscillation until the batteries would get partially charged. The AC current draw of the Heart Interface charger should have been well within the capabilities of the generator but the power factor was too high. I tried various capacitors and a few other remedies but nothing really worked. That is a good point. The ugliest load I have is my pump motors. I have some PCs going but they are behind a UPS. There may be an issue with the inverter A/C in the bedroom but we have all of the non essential loads off by then. At the end of the day, it is all about load diversity. |
Betsy displays some sense!
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:33:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Yes indeed, and upstate NY is a good place to be from. I always get confused about NY. I am never sure what is upstate, downstate or something else. I lived in Kingston and Binghampton/Endicott/Union. I was never sure where I was. I know I got snowed on 11/10/79 and it sucked. I also lost a ball on my drive on #1 at the IBM course in Endicott. It landed in the snow and I did not look for it ;-) A girl I dated in high school grandmother lived in Wellsville, NY. Grandma said she did leave the hosed for 6 weeks one winter because of all the ice and snow. My mother grew up a mile from the Wyoming border in Nebraska and she said they saw 40 below zero. Screw that, I grew up next to Berkeley, Ca. I saw frozen water one morning on the street in my youth. We all stood around looking amazed. As to horses, man invented 4x4 so you did not have deal with horses. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:54:48 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 8:43 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:46:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 7:39 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 17:58:03 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:49 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:09:14 -0400, John H. wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:26:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 11:02 AM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:23:18 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured: A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is.. P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances inside the microwave oven. === Whoo hoo! 'Airree discovered Power Factor, well known to EEs of course, which is why most high powered AC electrical devices are rated in KVA instead of KW. For bonus points explain why inductors create a phase difference between voltage and current. Eli the ice man. For even extra credit Harry, please explain when current leads voltage and when voltage leads current and what types of loads causes this. For our purposes of the microwave discussion, it can pretty much be ignored anyway. Power Factor becomes a concern in manufacturing plants when there are, as you say, many high powered electrical devices to be used. You'll have to give him some time to find a cut'n'pasteable response. === Heh, isn't that the truth. Cosine theta indeed! :-) It's of no interest to me. === I have no doubt, and all of those electrons out there are the better for it. By the way, lack of curiosity is the mark of a dullard. I think we should give him a break. He was just trying to be one of the guys. === Maybe, but I can't remember the last time he gave us a break, and him quoting power Factor theory was about the funniest thing he'd ever written. Long live cosine theta! That be true. I agree. If you walked into a room full of commercial electricians and started your power factor pitch with "cosine theta" they would throw their coffee at you and they have been dealing with power factor their whole career. As I said before, for the guy at the end of the wire, this really becomes the biggest problem when you have 3p Wye. It disappears in "gee whiz" info in the rest of the code. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 21:04:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 10/12/2018 8:50 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" - show quoted text - 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. ............ Lol! That’s one thing fun about my vintage guitar amps. They’d get hot, you could almost melt marshmallows over them. Think tubes. And I mean, toooobs! Yeah "tubes" was when we thought the TV was the biggest user of electricity ... and it might have been close if you had nat gas appliances. I was lucky that tubes were really just starting go away when I got into the computer biz. I still carried a 25L6 and a 2D21 in my tool bag. I did to a mail away electronic course when I was a kid where we made a series of things ending up with an AM radio using the box of parts we got each week. That was tubes. In the days I attended ET school in the Navy tubes and tube circuitry composed about 80 percent of the classes and school phases. It was good though because it covered all the components required to make them do their job and the theory and math behind them. It wasn't until the last few phases that they got into digital circuits, op-amps and TTL (5v) logic. CMOS and full circuit integrated "chips" were still unheard of in those days. Later, when attending civilian schools tubes were treated more as historical artifacts but the circuit theory and component theory remained much the same. I had a leg up on most of the people in the classes I took, thanks to the Navy. They talked about tubes in FT school but it was clear they thought the world was going to transistors. We really spent more time on more archaic things like servos and mag amps. There was also a lot more on basic theory and the fire control problem since they did not have a clue what system we would study in B school. It could have been the precursor to Ageis (too secret for us to know about) or the Mk 1 system they had on the USS Arizona. I was challenged by FTA school but I am not sure what I took away from it other than a few basic concepts, some study habits and what Harry would call the college experience. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:13:57 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT), True NorthÂ* wrote:Â* - show quoted text - "The issue is "proper clothes". A lot of us have contempt for clothes.Â* You can get away with it from about 50 to around 100FÂ* http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Oregon/Mt%2...t%20Hood.jpgÂ* I do understand dressing for the weather tho.Â* http://gfretwell.com/ftp/7%20Springs/Greg%20Skiing.jpg" Around here we have about 6 seasons and I have good jackets and work jackets for each. Wife is always complaining that I hog too much of the front closet.....not enough room for all of her jackets. I need to be skiing or something to get me out of shorts and boat shoes ... or cross trainers if I am hiking. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 03:40:23 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote: wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:33:42 -0400, Wayne.B wrote: Yes indeed, and upstate NY is a good place to be from. I always get confused about NY. I am never sure what is upstate, downstate or something else. I lived in Kingston and Binghampton/Endicott/Union. I was never sure where I was. I know I got snowed on 11/10/79 and it sucked. I also lost a ball on my drive on #1 at the IBM course in Endicott. It landed in the snow and I did not look for it ;-) A girl I dated in high school grandmother lived in Wellsville, NY. Grandma said she did leave the hosed for 6 weeks one winter because of all the ice and snow. My mother grew up a mile from the Wyoming border in Nebraska and she said they saw 40 below zero. Screw that, I grew up next to Berkeley, Ca. I saw frozen water one morning on the street in my youth. We all stood around looking amazed. As to horses, man invented 4x4 so you did not have deal with horses. I said if god wanted us to ride horse he would not have given us Harleys I know how to ride. I grew up riding and my niece has a bunch of horses but I just don't like it that much. I know how to start a fire with a stick and a block of wood but I carry a Bic. |
Betsy displays some sense!
|
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 10:10 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:01:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 6:02 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote: Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg.Â* We both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least in generators. For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can afford or want and be happy with it.Â* A whole house generator like Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for them is so rare. Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more miles on me)Â* I may spring for a whole house generator.Â* They are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week. Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years. We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you seem to like to do. First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a whole house generator. Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching inÂ* ;-) === I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time. Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and evening.Â* Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like you, but I like those temps. Ah ... bike trails, horseback riding, tennis ... all appropriate activities for people in their 70's - 80's. Why not? Although I think horses are too stupid to ride but I will if I have to. I know how I also prefer hiking to biking but they are all appropriate for me in the next decade. Tennis is OK. I might have trouble in 10 years covering the court but I bet I will still be able to bring up a bruise with my serve. I also bet Mrs E will be riding for 30-40 more years. I haven't met the lady but she seems like someone who will still be out there getting it done when we are all "off to a better place" (or just buried in the yard with my dogs, in my case) Maybe I misunderstood Mrs.E. is the same age I am so in 30 years she'd be 99 years old. Makes no difference though. Her horses will be long gone by then. Maybe then we can move south. :-) |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 10:52 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 10:10 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:01:31 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 6:02 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote: Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt. This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg.Â* We both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least in generators. For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can afford or want and be happy with it.Â* A whole house generator like Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for them is so rare. Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more miles on me)Â* I may spring for a whole house generator.Â* They are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week. Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years. We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you seem to like to do. First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a whole house generator. Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching inÂ* ;-) === I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time. Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and evening.Â* Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like you, but I like those temps. Ah ... bike trails, horseback riding, tennis ... all appropriate activities for people in their 70's - 80's. Why not? Although I think horses are too stupid to ride but I will if I have to. I know how I also prefer hiking to biking but they are all appropriate for me in the next decade. Tennis is OK. I might have trouble in 10 years covering the court but I bet I will still be able to bring up a bruise with my serve. I also bet Mrs E will be riding for 30-40 more years. I haven't met the lady but she seems like someone who will still be out there getting it done when we are all "off to a better place" (or just buried in the yard with my dogs, in my case) Maybe I misunderstood I ride my bike two or three times a week in the fall and spring, once a week in the summer when it is usually too hot for my taste. Sometimes I ride from where we live to the end of Chesapeake Beach. I suppose I could do it Luddite's way, on a motor scooter. The scooter is fun but I also have a bicycle that I ride fairly often. Good exercise. I think next spring I may get rid of the bigger motorcycle though. I thought I'd enjoy riding it after all the years I had one but it just doesn't do much for me anymore. If I need to run down to the convenience store three miles down the street the scooter does just fine. I do need to take the motorcycle out for a lengthy run though to use up the gas in the gas tank, refill it with fresh gas with a splash of Stabil, run it a bit more and then put the bike away for the winter. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 11:33 PM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2018 8:50 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 12:47:14 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" - show quoted text - 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. ............ Lol! That’s one thing fun about my vintage guitar amps. They’d get hot, you could almost melt marshmallows over them. Think tubes. And I mean, toooobs! Yeah "tubes" was when we thought the TV was the biggest user of electricity ... and it might have been close if you had nat gas appliances. I was lucky that tubes were really just starting go away when I got into the computer biz. I still carried a 25L6 and a 2D21 in my tool bag. I did to a mail away electronic course when I was a kid where we made a series of things ending up with an AM radio using the box of parts we got each week. That was tubes. In the days I attended ET school in the Navy tubes and tube circuitry composed about 80 percent of the classes and school phases. It was good though because it covered all the components required to make them do their job and the theory and math behind them. It wasn't until the last few phases that they got into digital circuits, op-amps and TTL (5v) logic. CMOS and full circuit integrated "chips" were still unheard of in those days. Later, when attending civilian schools tubes were treated more as historical artifacts but the circuit theory and component theory remained much the same. I had a leg up on most of the people in the classes I took, thanks to the Navy. I went to NCR computer school before the service, so was transistor trained. Tubes were the stuff you went down to the market and tested from the TV and the oscillator tube that the Chevy radio used to generate the different voltage in the radio. Most of my Air Force was tubes. Really powerful tubes. TACAN which had about 3000 watt dummy load on low voltage. 5000V on the tube. And then airborne radars, which were pretty much tubes in the 1960’s and a Magnetron. You'd be impressed with the water cooled vacuum tubes used in the 1 and 2 megawatt ELF transmitters the Navy used to use for submarine communications. Even the 100kw HF transmitters for surface ship communications had a potent tubes. A common transmitter in my time was the 100kw AN/FRT-40. It had a bank of about 8 mercury vapor vacuum tube diodes in the power supply section that glowed purple and a big, ceramic power output tube. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/05/95/b6/0595b6a861c7d2d5ae58f2386fb70b5e.jpg |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 10:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:03:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H. wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3 "The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain." Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant. There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators. About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8? They must have stronger horses in China With no losses considered: 8 hp = 5.96Kw 11 hp = 8.2Kw I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp. I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got from Home Depot: https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150 gallon tank and that is not very precise. After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my generator using my convection oven as the load. This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I could take pictures. I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably need a bigger generator. :-) I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the generator never tripped. I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main reason they are so noisy. My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a long time, mostly heat water for coffee. The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove, built in microwave is rated at. I purposely shopped for the lowest wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the smallest. It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320 watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power. 1320 watts is within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts. That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave with the input required to produce it. The large microwave was drawing slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's at least 1920 watts. The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous output and 2000 watts "surge". So to run the large microwave the Honda was running near or at it's surge rating continuously. Not good. That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on a dedicated 20a circuit. It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about it's microwave output power. It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had previously thought. As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service requirement of 120vac at 1.64 Kw. Output is listed as 1000 watts. So, it draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16 amps (briefly) on Honda power. So, on house power: 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out. Makes sense to me. 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"? Any energy that is not going to the load (food in this case) is waste. You have to assume the radiated power *mostly* ends up in the food so anything else is waste. The first thing you need to know when you are computing the HVAC load (heat) in a computer room is the power coming in. (AKA sensible heat) It is roughly 3400 BTU per KH and you assume all electricity coming in goes out as heat so you are saying your microwave is pumping 2217.89 BTU in the air the whole time it is running ... plus what it does heating the food? Sorry I was an Installation Planning Rep too ;-) I really think if all of that was true you could cook another hot dog on the fan. Well Greg, the specs on the sticker didn't lie. Input power required is 120vac, 1.64 Kw. Output: 1Kw. Confirmed by current reading of 14 amps when the microwave is running. I'll do another test. I'll run it again monitoring the current but set the microwave power to 50 percent or so. All that does is cycle the magnetron on and off for a 50 percent duty cycle. I'll see what the current draw is when the magnetron is in it's "off" cycle. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H. wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3 "The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain." Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant. There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators. About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8? They must have stronger horses in China With no losses considered: 8 hp = 5.96Kw 11 hp = 8.2Kw I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp. I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got from Home Depot: https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150 gallon tank and that is not very precise. After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my generator using my convection oven as the load. This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I could take pictures. I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably need a bigger generator. :-) I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the generator never tripped. I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main reason they are so noisy. My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a long time, mostly heat water for coffee. Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a problem for the 2000 watter. John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200 watt microwave. I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are designed to run on 15 amp circuits. Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but none if it has a plug on it. I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"? I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14 ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp. Have the codes changed? No. A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2. There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential. Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends that to residential. The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience, not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design". Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes any wall space 24" or wider. In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle. This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to describe. Damn lawyers ;-) 210.52 is one of the more confusing articles. I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ? That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment) There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device (receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per the NRTL ; like U/L) The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up. (and remain in a safe condition) You dealt with labs, You know that stuff. Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16. That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA 5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20. Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-) The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements for the average system was 60-80 KVA I used to spec the service requirements for the whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation. When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors, etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power consuming components running at the same time. Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly. |
Betsy displays some sense!
|
Betsy displays some sense!
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT), True North wrote:
Wayne.B - show quoted text - ===* "I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter* time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time." No such thing as "too cold for outdoor activity". You just need the proper clothing or gear. I thought you were from upstate New York? Don, the discussion was about Harry. Remember, he's moving south to excape the cold. |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/13/2018 5:15 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 10:25 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:03:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote: On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote: On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H. wrote: http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3 "The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the bottom rungs are beginning to benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs report, unemployment has been pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar industries, such as construction and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay for people without a college education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain." Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant. There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators. About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8? They must have stronger horses in China With no losses considered: 8 hp = 5.96Kw 11 hp = 8.2Kw I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor last year.Â* It was brand new, still in the box and she decided to have a whole house generator installed instead.Â* She only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be ripping her off, so I gave her $300.Â* It's rated at 4,750 peak watts and 3800 watts continuous.Â* Engine is 6.3 hp. I put it together last spring and fired it up.Â* Ran fine, was not overly noisy (for a conventional type generator).Â* It has electric start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane is at a reduced output capacity.Â* I ran it out of gas and stored it away and, until just now, had forgotten I had it.Â* It's a "Wren" that she got from Home Depot: https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150 gallon tank and that is not very precise. After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my generator using my convection oven as the load. This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I could take pictures. I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but they may not last long if done on a regular basis.Â* Windings and other components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably need a bigger generator.Â* :-) I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps.Â* It ran my large microwave with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave off.Â* I wouldn't do that on a regular basis.Â* The circuit breaker on the generator never tripped. I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator.Â* 3600 RPM is the main reason they are so noisy. My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine.Â* Never ran it for a long time, mostly heat water for coffee. The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove, built in microwave is rated at.Â*Â* I purposely shopped for the lowest wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the smallest.Â* It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320 watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power.Â* 1320 watts is within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts. That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave with the input required to produce it.Â* The large microwave was drawing slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's at least 1920 watts.Â* The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous output and 2000 watts "surge".Â* So to run the large microwave the Honda was running near or at it's surge rating continuously.Â* Not good. That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on a dedicated 20a circuit. It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about it's microwave output power.Â* It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had previously thought. As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service requirement of 120vac at 1.64 Kw.Â* Output is listed as 1000 watts.Â* So, it draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16 amps (briefly) on Honda power. So, on house power:Â* 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out.Â* Makes sense to me. 640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite receiver. What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"? Any energy that is not going to the load (food in this case) is waste. You have to assume the radiated power *mostly* ends up in the food so anything else is waste. The first thing you need to know when you are computing the HVAC load (heat) in a computer room is the power coming in. (AKA sensible heat) It is roughly 3400 BTU per KH and you assume all electricity coming in goes out as heat so you are saying your microwave is pumping 2217.89 BTU in the air the whole time it is running ... plus what it does heating the food? Sorry I was an Installation Planning Rep too ;-) I really think if all of that was true you could cook another hot dog on the fan. Well Greg, the specs on the sticker didn't lie.Â* Input power required is 120vac, 1.64 Kw.Â* Output: 1Kw.Â* Confirmed by current reading of 14 amps when the microwave is running. I'll do another test.Â* I'll run it again monitoring the current but set the microwave power to 50 percent or so.Â* All that does is cycle the magnetron on and off for a 50 percent duty cycle.Â* I'll see what the current draw is when the magnetron is in it's "off" cycle. Ok. Did the above described "test". With the magnetron running the current draw is about 14 amps (bounces from about 13.8 to 14.1) When the magnetron shuts off but the microwave is still running the current drops to about 0.8 - 1.0 amperes. The fan, turntable, internal light and control/display are still running. So, when the fan, turntable, light and control/display are on, the microwave is consuming about 108 watts (0.9a * 120v) of the 1640 watts service rating. The magnetron, when it kicks in, is using an additional 13 amps or about 1560 watts. 108 watts plus 1560 watts = 1668 watts. Damn close to the service rating of 1640 watts. I attribute the 28 watt discrepancy to the accuracy of the Kill-a-Watt meter and the number I noted as it ran. The current readings tend to bounce around a bit. Each of the powered devices (the turntable motor, fan, light, controls/display and magnetron) are not 100 percent efficient obviously so there are losses in each that are given off in heat but the numbers are pretty close to the sticker reading. Obviously, the losses don't add up to 640 watts of "waste heat" going out the vent, so that's why you can't cook a hot dog on it. Thus ends my science experiment for the month. :-) |
Betsy displays some sense!
Wrote in message:
On 13 Oct 2018 03:00:51 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote: He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so. There you go again...wrong as usual. That you have a snow blower or that you think SC will be balmy? He hires his snow blowin out. He doesn't have the strength or stamina to operate a snow blower. -- x ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Betsy displays some sense!
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Betsy displays some sense!
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Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/13/18 10:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/13/2018 10:04 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 11:59 PM, wrote: On 13 Oct 2018 03:00:51 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote: He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so. There you go again...wrong as usual. That you have a snow blower or that you think SC will be balmy? Never had a snow blower. Our landscaping guy here has us high on the "come by and plow list" if the driveway needs plowing. Usually, that is once a season, never been more than twice. If it is just a couple of inches of snow, I 4WD over it and let the sun do its job. The critical factor is when the state highway department gets to the secondary state roads. I've done some research on seasonal temps in Hilton Head, and I've been there in December and February. Where we are now typically has considerably colder winters. It's not balmy in Hilton Head in the winters...I would describe it as mild, and suitable for my usual outfit of cargo shorts and a short-sleeved shirt, with occasional use of a lightweight hoodie. My truck, which is still in great shape (2016 with about 25,000 miles), might be traded in when we get to Hilton Head. Its 4WD, and I can't think of a reason why I'd need it down there. I don't drive on beaches, the boat ramps in that area seem quiteÂ* good, and there's no real snow. I think a 2WD Toyota would be fine. You 4WD in 2 inches of snow?Â*Â* Wow! D'uh. Yeah, I drive up and down the driveway in 4WD a few times to "reveal" the asphalt so the sun can melt the snow. Ends up clearing off the driveway faster. Sometimes it is more than just a couple of inches of snow, but I don't go out and measure it. You see a problem with that, eh? |
Betsy displays some sense!
On 10/13/2018 10:36 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/13/18 10:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/13/2018 10:04 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 11:59 PM, wrote: On 13 Oct 2018 03:00:51 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote: He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so. There you go again...wrong as usual. That you have a snow blower or that you think SC will be balmy? Never had a snow blower. Our landscaping guy here has us high on the "come by and plow list" if the driveway needs plowing. Usually, that is once a season, never been more than twice. If it is just a couple of inches of snow, I 4WD over it and let the sun do its job. The critical factor is when the state highway department gets to the secondary state roads. I've done some research on seasonal temps in Hilton Head, and I've been there in December and February. Where we are now typically has considerably colder winters. It's not balmy in Hilton Head in the winters...I would describe it as mild, and suitable for my usual outfit of cargo shorts and a short-sleeved shirt, with occasional use of a lightweight hoodie. My truck, which is still in great shape (2016 with about 25,000 miles), might be traded in when we get to Hilton Head. Its 4WD, and I can't think of a reason why I'd need it down there. I don't drive on beaches, the boat ramps in that area seem quiteÂ* good, and there's no real snow. I think a 2WD Toyota would be fine. You 4WD in 2 inches of snow?Â*Â* Wow! D'uh. Yeah, I drive upÂ* and down the driveway in 4WD a few times to "reveal" the asphalt so the sun can melt the snow. Ends up clearing off the driveway faster. Sometimes it is more than just a couple of inches of snow, but I don't go out and measure it. You see a problem with that, eh? Don't know why but I find it a little humorous..... http://funkyimg.com/i/2M53P.jpg |
Betsy displays some sense!
9:36 AMKeyser Soze - show quoted text - D'uh. Yeah, I drive up and down the driveway in 4WD a few times to "reveal" the asphalt so the sun can melt the snow. Ends up clearing off the driveway faster. Sometimes it is more than just a couple of inches of snow, but I don't go out and measure it. You see a problem with that, eh? ........ I used to do circle burnouts on me driveway to accomplish the same thing on my Yamaha DT360 😎 |
Betsy displays some sense!
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 11:51:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 10/13/2018 10:36 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/13/18 10:32 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 10/13/2018 10:04 AM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 10/12/18 11:59 PM, wrote: On 13 Oct 2018 03:00:51 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote: He probably has a snow blower so this will be balmy for a year or so. There you go again...wrong as usual. That you have a snow blower or that you think SC will be balmy? Never had a snow blower. Our landscaping guy here has us high on the "come by and plow list" if the driveway needs plowing. Usually, that is once a season, never been more than twice. If it is just a couple of inches of snow, I 4WD over it and let the sun do its job. The critical factor is when the state highway department gets to the secondary state roads. I've done some research on seasonal temps in Hilton Head, and I've been there in December and February. Where we are now typically has considerably colder winters. It's not balmy in Hilton Head in the winters...I would describe it as mild, and suitable for my usual outfit of cargo shorts and a short-sleeved shirt, with occasional use of a lightweight hoodie. My truck, which is still in great shape (2016 with about 25,000 miles), might be traded in when we get to Hilton Head. Its 4WD, and I can't think of a reason why I'd need it down there. I don't drive on beaches, the boat ramps in that area seem quite* good, and there's no real snow. I think a 2WD Toyota would be fine. You 4WD in 2 inches of snow?** Wow! D'uh. Yeah, I drive up* and down the driveway in 4WD a few times to "reveal" the asphalt so the sun can melt the snow. Ends up clearing off the driveway faster. Sometimes it is more than just a couple of inches of snow, but I don't go out and measure it. You see a problem with that, eh? Don't know why but I find it a little humorous..... http://funkyimg.com/i/2M53P.jpg Let me know if this works. I'm trying your 'funkyimg.com'. http://funkyimg.com/i/2M54Q.jpg That's my pup, Koko, posing. |
Betsy displays some sense!
11:06 AMJohn H - show quoted text - Let me know if this works. I'm trying your 'funkyimg.com'. http://funkyimg.com/i/2M54Q.jpg That's my pup, Koko, posing. ............ The pic came through just fine. Nice looking doggie. |
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