BoatBanter.com - Betsy displays some sense!

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Betsy displays some sense!

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 20:13:57 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:21:39 -0700 (PDT), True NorthÂ*
wrote:Â*

- show quoted text -

"The issue is "proper clothes". A lot of us have contempt for clothes.Â*
You can get away with it from about 50 to around 100FÂ*
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/Oregon/Mt%2...t%20Hood.jpgÂ*
I do understand dressing for the weather tho.Â*
http://gfretwell.com/ftp/7%20Springs/Greg%20Skiing.jpg"

Around here we have about 6 seasons and I have good jackets and work jackets for each.
Wife is always complaining that I hog too much of the front closet.....not enough room for all of her jackets.

I need to be skiing or something to get me out of shorts and boat
shoes ... or cross trainers if I am hiking.

Betsy displays some sense!

On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 03:40:23 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:33:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

Yes indeed, and upstate NY is a good place to be from.

I always get confused about NY. I am never sure what is upstate,
downstate or something else.
I lived in Kingston and Binghampton/Endicott/Union. I was never sure
where I was. I know I got snowed on 11/10/79 and it sucked. I also
lost a ball on my drive on #1 at the IBM course in Endicott. It landed
in the snow and I did not look for it ;-)

A girl I dated in high school grandmother lived in Wellsville, NY.
Grandma said she did leave the hosed for 6 weeks one winter because of all
the ice and snow. My mother grew up a mile from the Wyoming border in
Nebraska and she said they saw 40 below zero. Screw that, I grew up next
to Berkeley, Ca. I saw frozen water one morning on the street in my
youth. We all stood around looking amazed. As to horses, man invented
4x4 so you did not have deal with horses.

I said if god wanted us to ride horse he would not have given us
Harleys
I know how to ride. I grew up riding and my niece has a bunch of
horses but I just don't like it that much.
I know how to start a fire with a stick and a block of wood but I
carry a Bic.

Betsy displays some sense!

On 10/12/2018 10:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:03:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.

I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.

My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.

The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but
it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove,
built in microwave is rated at. I purposely shopped for the lowest
wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the
smallest. It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320
watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power. 1320 watts is
within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts.

That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave
with the input required to produce it. The large microwave was drawing
slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's
at least 1920 watts. The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous
output and 2000 watts "surge". So to run the large microwave the Honda
was running near or at it's surge rating continuously. Not good.

That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on
a dedicated 20a circuit.

It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about
it's microwave output power. It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had
previously thought.

As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service requirement
of 120vac at 1.64 Kw. Output is listed as 1000 watts. So, it
draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16 amps
(briefly) on Honda power.

So, on house power: 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out. Makes sense to me.

640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on
mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite
receiver.

What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"?

Any energy that is not going to the load (food in this case) is waste.
You have to assume the radiated power *mostly* ends up in the food so
anything else is waste.
The first thing you need to know when you are computing the HVAC load
(heat) in a computer room is the power coming in. (AKA sensible heat)
It is roughly 3400 BTU per KH and you assume all electricity coming in
goes out as heat so you are saying your microwave is pumping 2217.89
BTU in the air the whole time it is running ... plus what it does
heating the food?

Sorry I was an Installation Planning Rep too ;-)

I really think if all of that was true you could cook another hot dog
on the fan.

Well Greg, the specs on the sticker didn't lie. Input power required
is 120vac, 1.64 Kw. Output: 1Kw. Confirmed by current reading of
14 amps when the microwave is running.

I'll do another test. I'll run it again monitoring the current but
set the microwave power to 50 percent or so. All that does is cycle
the magnetron on and off for a 50 percent duty cycle. I'll see what the
current draw is when the magnetron is in it's "off" cycle.

Betsy displays some sense!

On 10/12/2018 10:36 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 19:10:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 3:57 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China

With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.

I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.

My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.

Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.

John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.

I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.

I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.

I understand all the convenience stuff but you said that "Max on a 15a
circuit is 12amps). So why do the 15 amp receptacles say "15 amps" on
them? Why is the 15 amp circuit fed from a 15 amp breaker? If code
says "max on a 15a circuit is 12 amps" why aren't the breakers 12 amps
and the receptacles labeled "12 amps" ?

That is per plug (or piece of fixed in place equipment)
There are a lot of things going on here. The rated amperes on a device
(receptacle switch etc) is what it can handle without burning up (per
the NRTL ; like U/L)
The ampacity of a conductor is what it an handle without burning up.
(and remain in a safe condition)
You dealt with labs, You know that stuff.
Then there is the code that tries to build an 80% safety margin into
everything. 15 becomes 12 and 20 becomes 16.
That is really only applicable to continuous loads (3 hours) but they
always err on the safe side. If you can plug it in, they assume you
need all help you can get so the NRTL puts the 1440w limit on a NEMA
5-15 plug and 1920w on a 5-20.

Ah, I think you are referring to industrial code requirements. Not sure
they all apply to residential wiring in a house but again, I am not
an electrician and don't even have a current code book. :-)

The equipment I used to build had many three phase motors and other
relatively high powered components most of which ran on three phase
power. Most were 480v, delta and occasionally 208 wye, depending
on what the customer's service was. Typical service requirements
for the average system was 60-80 KVA

I used to spec the service requirements for the
whole system so the customer could plan for it' installation.

When I first started doing this and being knowledgeable of which motors,
etc. would be on and which would be off during the system's operation, I
specified the the service for the maximum KVA it could draw at any time
with a safety factor. The systems never had *all* the high power
consuming components running at the same time.

Later, as the company grew, more people were hired and my role became
more corporate management versus technical I hired an electrical
engineer with a P.E. to manage the electrical department. He changed
the way the systems were spec'd to include *all* the motors, etc. even
though they would never run together at the same time. He said the way
I had been doing it was ok ... safe ... but the code required the total
of all, running or not. All it did was cause the customer's service
requirements to go up dramatically but needlessly.

Betsy displays some sense!