On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.

--
Posted with my iPhone 8+.

On 10/5/2018 8:38 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.


Understand. You have a permanently installed whole house generator.
You've made that clear many times.

What we are discussing is a convenient way to hook up a small, portable
generator to feed a limited number of circuits, the most important being
for heat in the winter. As I've mentioned before a whole house system
is nice but we really haven't had enough long term outages to justify it
right now. In five or ten years it would have more "running" time on
it as a result of the weekly 10 minute battery charging exercise they
are programed for than providing power to the house.

If the day comes that I can't physically wheel or carry out a 43 lb
generator and plug it into the outside transfer switch, I'll consider a
whole house genset. To be honest I originally started looking into
this to help out my neighbor. He's 81 years old, has limited funds but
can still heft his little Honda around.

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 8:38 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.


Understand. You have a permanently installed whole house generator.
You've made that clear many times.

What we are discussing is a convenient way to hook up a small, portable
generator to feed a limited number of circuits, the most important being
for heat in the winter. As I've mentioned before a whole house system
is nice but we really haven't had enough long term outages to justify it
right now. In five or ten years it would have more "running" time on
it as a result of the weekly 10 minute battery charging exercise they
are programed for than providing power to the house.

If the day comes that I can't physically wheel or carry out a 43 lb
generator and plug it into the outside transfer switch, I'll consider a
whole house genset. To be honest I originally started looking into
this to help out my neighbor. He's 81 years old, has limited funds but
can still heft his little Honda around.




One of our neighbors about 10 years ago installed a big manual transfer
switch/breaker switch in his garage, next to the existing breaker boxes. He
has a 10kw genny on a cradle with wheels that he pushes out onto his
driveway and then plugs in to the transfer switch/breaker box. Easy-peasey.

--
Posted with my iPhone 8+.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:06:51 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The extension cord thing is what he (and I) did last year mainly to
run the refrigerator and a lamp or two. We lost cable as well, so
I had another extension cord run to a TV that I hooked up an antenna
to and was able to receive 20 something digital channels, either from
Boston or from Providence, RI. This was in a particularly cold period
and after two days it was starting to get chilly so I pulled the feed
wire for the furnace out of it's breaker in the power panel and
connected a "cheater" cord to it that ran off the generator. Worked
fine. I measured the current draw when the furnace and fan were running
with a clamp-on and it was just about 6 amps, well within the Honda's
max current rating of 13 amps. I didn't try but it probably could also
have run the refrigerator and a few LED lights as long as the
refrigerator compressor and furnace fan didn't try to start at the
same time.

It's really just a minor inconvenience anyway. Power failures of more
than an hour or so are very rare. The outdoor transfer switch just
makes it easier than running extension cords all over the place.


Usually you have a disconnect switch for the furnace motor right there
in a handy box. Swap the switch out for a SPDT switch (trade name 3
way). Connect one brass screw to the line and another to a cord with a
plug on it. (black screw goes to the furnace) It will still function
as the legally required disconnect as long as you don't have the plug
connected to anything but it is also your transfer switch for the
furnace., Plug that into an extension cord from the generator. Just be
sure the transformer for the thermostat and igniter is on the load
side of the switch so it transfers over too.

Be aware most "air handlers" for HVAC systems (not a furnace) will
have a 240v motor but that would be immediately apparent if you had a
large 2 pole disconnect similar to the one on the outside unit instead
of a simple snap switch. That is also the disconnect for the toaster
wire heat strips.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 08:25:09 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.


My panel is in the basement mounted on an outside wall. Installation should be a snap, with a hole
already in the foundation. The wiring would be a different story.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 08:38:49 -0400, Keyser Söze wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.

Different subject. Or are just looking for attention.

On Fri, 05 Oct 2018 07:08:36 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.

Installing the switch is not the expensive part. It is swinging over
the 6 (or more) circuits you want to transfer. Your mileage will
certainly vary on that one depending on where you want the generator
and where the panel is.
Also be aware generators may be putting out 115 volts and not 120 so
voltage drop can be an issue. That feeder from the generator may have
to be up sized if it is very long. I know it was a problem for my. The
fridge in the kitchen was only seeing 106-108v on start up.
I now have one of these for it. (a gift from Henk, my dutch friend)
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Henc%20Variac.jpg

It lets you adjust the voltage up or down.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 08:56:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 8:38 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.


Understand. You have a permanently installed whole house generator.
You've made that clear many times.

What we are discussing is a convenient way to hook up a small, portable
generator to feed a limited number of circuits, the most important being
for heat in the winter. As I've mentioned before a whole house system
is nice but we really haven't had enough long term outages to justify it
right now. In five or ten years it would have more "running" time on
it as a result of the weekly 10 minute battery charging exercise they
are programed for than providing power to the house.

If the day comes that I can't physically wheel or carry out a 43 lb
generator and plug it into the outside transfer switch, I'll consider a
whole house genset. To be honest I originally started looking into
this to help out my neighbor. He's 81 years old, has limited funds but
can still heft his little Honda around.


Oh hell, they probably have a wheel kit for that damn thing somewhere!

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 09:07:54 -0400, Keyser Söze wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 8:38 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/5/2018 7:52 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be
a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work
better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the
transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.



I like the idea of having the transfer switch outside. As Greg pointed
out though, it needs to be near the main power panel inside the house
to avoid having to run long lengths of power lines for the switched
circuits. The one you provided a link for apparently comes with 10 ft
whips.




Our auto transfer switch and breaker box is inside, right under the house’s
two breaker boxes. The genny will run the larger heat pump, whether we need
heat or a/c.


Understand. You have a permanently installed whole house generator.
You've made that clear many times.

What we are discussing is a convenient way to hook up a small, portable
generator to feed a limited number of circuits, the most important being
for heat in the winter. As I've mentioned before a whole house system
is nice but we really haven't had enough long term outages to justify it
right now. In five or ten years it would have more "running" time on
it as a result of the weekly 10 minute battery charging exercise they
are programed for than providing power to the house.

If the day comes that I can't physically wheel or carry out a 43 lb
generator and plug it into the outside transfer switch, I'll consider a
whole house genset. To be honest I originally started looking into
this to help out my neighbor. He's 81 years old, has limited funds but
can still heft his little Honda around.




One of our neighbors about 10 years ago installed a big manual transfer
switch/breaker switch in his garage, next to the existing breaker boxes. He
has a 10kw genny on a cradle with wheels that he pushes out onto his
driveway and then plugs in to the transfer switch/breaker box. Easy-peasey.

We're talking small, inverter generators and electricity management.