On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 18:39:13 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for asÂ* "sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and
the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a
7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

It's more of an issue of reinforcing awareness of the responsibility
that goes with having firearms.

1 or 2 new laws certainly are not going to end mass shootings or
criminal activities using firearms. What is required is a cultural
change that includes those who are so adamant about their 2nd Amendment
rights and all the naysayers who find every reason in the world to argue
that any further attempt to control the use and ownership of firearms is
fruitless. Change has to start somewhere. Better to recognize and
accept that there's a serious problem and support those reasonable
attempts to at least have some potential affect than to turn a blind eye
and wake up someday to find that far more draconian measures have been
enacted.

I fully support the right to gun ownership for last resort self defense
and sporting activities. With that right comes responsibility however.




So, someone steals your car, and uses it in a bank robbery. What charges
against you will you accept?

For that matter what if they just borrowed your car?

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:41:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for asÂ* "sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



Your arguments are more political (or anti-political) than they are
related to trying to curb gun accidents and deaths.

The world has changed since you were 15 living in Maryland.


The world may have created more psychopaths but shouldn't we be trying
to address that instead of going after the last thing someone used for
their crime?
It wasn't more than a couple months ago when high capacity magazines
and military style rifles were the boogie man. Now it is Joe Biden's
shotgun and a revolver.
The common denominator is a crazy sombitch, not any particular gun or
even the process of buying one.
You can come up with plenty of meaningless measures just to say you
"did something" but if what you did was no help, did you really "do"
anything at all?
The things I hear are only an inconvenience and ultimately an expense
to the people who use firearms legally and safely. They have no real
effect on those who want to create mayhem with one.
There does seem to be one pattern.
If your state has the law you say it is no big deal and we should all
be doing it the way you do.
I guess the Maryland people have to STFU about that now.

On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 11:41:50 AM UTC-4, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/30/18 11:33 AM, True North wrote:
Keyser Soze

- show quoted text -

"I'd extend that responsibility to anyone who "gifts" a kid a firearm."


I agree wholeheartedly and unequivocally with this post.
I would add that ex military types, who should know better, get double the punishment.



I heard that a very, very special place in hell is reserved for hateful,
racist pieces of **** like Herring. I don't believe in hell, but, if it
does exist, I am sure it would be chock full of Herring-like guys.
Justan, of course, would be stuck forever in purgatory, not being smart
enough to know the electronic door code for hell is 666.

Wow. You are a childish, immature asshole. You are special.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:59:21 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 2:05 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 13:56:14 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 10:34 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/30/18 9:30 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t
they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and
out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the
guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did
"something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old,
named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a
minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for as
"sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are
banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the
shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is
legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of
sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media
rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion
for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some
reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not
registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that
firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required
within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a
decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms
and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs
a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced.Â* Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful,Â* I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's
heads they may be more careful in the control of who has access to
their firearms.Â* I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings
who got the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

It's more of an issue of reinforcing awareness of the responsibility
that goes with having firearms.

1 or 2 new laws certainly are not going to end mass shootings or
criminal activities using firearms.Â* What is required is a cultural
change that includes those who are so adamant about their 2nd
Amendment rights and all the naysayers who find every reason in the
world to argue that any further attempt to control the use and
ownership of firearms is fruitless.Â* Change has to start somewhere.
Better to recognize and
accept that there's a serious problem and support those reasonable
attempts to at least have some potential affect than to turn a blind
eye and wake up someday to find that far more draconian measures have
been enacted.

I fully support the right to gun ownership for last resort self defense
and sporting activities.Â* With that right comes responsibility however.



I'd extend that responsibility to anyone who "gifts" a kid a firearm.


I see no problem if the "kid" is of legal age to own the firearm and
it is transferred to him along with a new registration of ownership.

That leaves the original owner (gifter) with no further responsibility.

Of course under the rules I have proposed if someone just gifts a
firearm to someone without any documentation of the transfer, the
original owner should still be held responsible if that firearm ever
becomes used in criminal activity.


I still ask, why is documentation a mitigator in any crimes?
What difference does it really make?
Virtually every one of these mass shootings involve legally purchased
and properly documented firearms.

When you look at the bulk of the murders (around the drug trade), the
guns are usually stolen and I doubt anyone will be rushing down to the
police station to register a stolen gun, particularly since most are
barred from owning one in the first place.



Because we have to change our thinking about gun ownership, not outlaw them.

You said you had a shotgun at 15 and "unfettered" access to a .22 before
then. Tim just mentioned that he had a .357 at 15 and a .44 at 17.

Obviously both of you were responsible and careful with them otherwise
either or both of you would not be around to be posting in rec.boats today.

But, let me ask you this:

Do you (and Tim) think that now-a-days any 15 year old kid in your
neighborhoods should have the right to have a shotgun or a .357 whatever
it was?

Is your confidence in other families and the parents that control
them high enough to feel comfortable with kids barely beyond puberty
walking around with those firearms?

Not me. Many parents today don't even enforce some of the basic
rules we grew up with.



So now, at least, you seem to be admitting this is a societal problem
more than a gun problem. Why not put the same scrutiny on parents that
you want to put on guns?
Why do we need to wait until a kid shoots up his school or more likely
kills himself before we even start to look at what kind of parents and
family structure they have?
We have spent so much time freeing "mom" from her main responsibility
raising her kids to pursue a career and told everyone single parent
household families are fine that we have forgotten kids need parents.

On 6/30/2018 8:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for asÂ* "sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.


At a certain point I think we have squeezed the gun issue about as
hard as we can. It is time to start trying to just stop the crazy
people who think it is OK to kill a bunch of innocent victims.
I have said many times, guns are for lazy people but it is far from
the only deadly thing out there. Some can be even more devastating.
There are plenty of industrial gasses that are totally unregulated and
have the ability to really do some damage.
How many people would recognize the smell of acetylene and know to run
like hell if they smelled it coming out of the vents in a building?



I guess this is what is called today as "having a conversation".

Nothing is really accomplished but points of view are identified.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:50:04 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 15:12:27 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


It's important to remember that "culture" varies enormously from state
to state, and region to region. Folks in rural areas absolutely
detest having big city values pushed on to them. Why should they be
punished for the misdeeds of others?



We are becoming much more homogeneous as a nation. The farmlands and
rural areas of the past are becoming high tech manufacturing areas.
As this trend continues it's not unreasonable (IMO) to expect a more
uniform "culture" as it relates to firearms.

===

You need to a drive through the fly over states or even the western
portions of the eastern states. The first day of deer season is
regarded as a holiday in many parts of Pennsylvania and rural areas of
NY.

He definitely has the "I-95 blinders" on in his journey through life.
The place we rented in Paradise Valley Montana was in a little loosely
coupled HOA type community where everyone had acreage (houses
typically 1500-2000 feet apart) and they had a 200 yard rifle range
set up on one of the lots. The place in Bad Rock was even more remote.
There are plenty of places east of 75 here where people shoot in their
yard.

On 6/30/18 7:55 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 7:36 PM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 5:51 PM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off,
aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy
and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but
it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified
the guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did
"something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years
old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a
defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also
has a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind
of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for as
"sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun
qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles
are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10
off the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is
legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into
Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of
sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they
had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media
rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that
can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or
who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help
but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause
indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for
some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not
registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of
that firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner
is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be
required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as
a decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms
and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he
robs
a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd
like to
see implemented and enforced.Â* Similar to some of the
Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity
should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful,Â* I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's
heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms.Â* I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who
got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again,
what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.



Bull****. He's not advocating 'do nothing'. He's pointing out the
futility of passing more laws
which do nothing to stop the shootings but do create more government
jobs and paperwork.



Bull**** yourself.Â* It seems any attempt to even discuss possibilities
of how to address the killing that takes place using guns is countered
by "it wouldn't have stopped ...."

That has not been my point throughout this discussion.



All the discussion has been about laws to stop the killings.Â*Â* Murder is
outlawed, has not helped.Â*Â* The discussion should be on what would change
the culture of violence.Â*Â* You have popular games like Grand Theft Auto.
Really graphic.Â*Â* The movies since the spaghetti westerns have glorified
bloody killing in slow,motion.Â*Â* These changes are good?Â*Â* We have a
modern
Prohibition like alcohol, which created the Mobs.Â*Â* Now we have a drug
culture, that does drive by shootings to define territory, not
necessarily
to eliminate competition.Â*Â* Changing the registration laws would do jack
**** for reducing the violence.



"Changing our culture"Â* regarding guns has been the main point I have
been trying to make ... perhaps poorly.

Registering all firearms will not immediately reduce gun violence or
mass shootings but it is a step towards raising an "awareness" about
guns in our society overall.Â* Seems every time a bunch of innocent
people get killed it's all the news for a week or so and then it's back
to life as usual.

Combine that with your example of violent video games and a oh-hum
acceptance of blood and gore in the movies that is a component of the
"culture" we have now.Â* Isn't it time for us to start really thinking
about what is being accepted as "normal"?



The same video games and movies pretty much are played and watched in
democracies around the world. Why don't those societies have the sort of
mass shootings we do? Could it be the easy availability of guns and a
gun culture?

On 6/30/18 8:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off, aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did "something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for asÂ* "sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced. Similar to some of the Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful, I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms. I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.


At a certain point I think we have squeezed the gun issue about as
hard as we can. It is time to start trying to just stop the crazy
people who think it is OK to kill a bunch of innocent victims.

It's time to start thinking about ways to change out gun culture.

On 6/30/18 9:00 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/30/2018 8:31 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:38:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 12:10 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:30:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 6/30/2018 7:44 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:19:51 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:28:47 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/29/18 12:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/29/2018 11:38 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 6/29/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 08:05:34 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 6/28/18 10:55 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:13:47 -0400, Keyser Soze

wrote:

On 6/28/18 8:50 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 6/28/2018 8:38 PM, Tim wrote:
Mr. Luddite

... shooting in Annapolis, MD ?
..........

This strict gun control laws are really paying off,
aren’t they?



Tim, it's more like this country has gone totally crazy
and out of
control.Â* No clues yet what this guy's motive was but it
won't
surprise me if he turns out to beÂ* a right wing nutcase.


Well, for what it is worth, the police have identified the
guy from
photo recognition software. It was reported he did
"something" to
obliterate his fingerprints. He's a white man, 39 years
old, named
Jarrod Warren Ramos, according to multiple law enforcement
sources, who
apparently lives in Laurel, Maryland.

Ramos has a connection to the paper. He filed a defamation
claim
in 2012
against the paper but the case was dismissed. He also has
a minor
conviction for "harassment" some years ago.



Tim thinks Maryland has "strict" gun laws. That's kind of
funny,
since
Maryland doesn't have "strict" gun laws.

They have most of the things people are clamoring for as
"sensible"
or "common sense" gun laws
* handgun license to buy one
* handgun de facto registration
*Assault Weapons ban
* high cap magazine ban
* universal background checks on all sales
* red flag law

Do they still have that stupid fired case law?


As I said, Maryland does not have strict gun laws.

There is no "handgun license." There is a "handgun
qualification
license."Â* Even an idiot like Alex could get one.

I'm not sure what "handgun de facto registration" means.

There is no "assault weapons ban." Most AR-15 type rifles
are banned if
they don't have heavy barrels, but you can buy an AR-10 off
the shelf,
and any number of different semi-auto rifles.

Only the sale of hi-cap mags are prohibited. Possession is
legal, as is
buying them across the state line and bringing them into
Maryland.

I have no idea what a "red flag" law is.

Your state is one of the ones the left uses for examples of
sensible
gun laws. BTE to enlighten you the red flag law mean they had
the
ability to take Ramos' shotgun based on his social media
rantings but
they didn't.

Thanks for pointing out the futility tho.


Ahh, so there's nothing that can be done. Let 'er rip!


I've come to the conclusion that there really is nothing that can
be done in terms of new gun laws mainly because of how many guns
already exist and the lack of records as to where they are or who
owns them. Yeah, mandatory background checks, etc., may help
but most
places already have them.

The only thing I can think of .... and this will cause
indigestion for
many here ... is a required registration of all guns
and strict enforcement of the required registration.Â* If for
some reason
you are found to be in possession of a firearm that is not
registered to
you as it's owner, it results in immediate confiscation of that
firearm.

The data base or registry identifies the owner and the owner is
held
responsible for it and it's use.Â* If stolen, sold or legally
transferred a report of that event or transfer would be
required within
48 hours.

Not dissimilar for titles for vehicles.

So to some ... go take an antacid.

It's the tiny bit of liberal DNA in me.







I'd certainly support complete registration of all firearms as a
decent
start. Used firearms must be registered, too. Along with the
registration, a mandatory background check of the purchaser. All
firearms, no exceptions.

That would not have changed any of the recent shootings at all.
They had no problem tracing this guy's shotgun back to the dealer
within hours. What would registration do?


I can't understand why you are so down on registration of firearms
and the attendant paperwork and
bureaucracy.

The purpose of all that is to help find the perpetrator when he
robs a 7/11, shoots someone, and
leaves his gun on the counter as he departs.

Now get off this negative attitude!



There's another aspect of mandatory gun registration that I'd like to
see implemented and enforced.Â* Similar to some of the
Admiralty/Maritime
laws, I think firearms used in any kind of criminal activity should
have
some level of responsibility traced back to the owner on record,
regardless if the owner on record was even remotely connected to the
crime committed.

Before Greg points out that it "wouldn't have prevented any mass
killings" so therefore it's not helpful,Â* I'd like to make the point
that perhaps with some criminal responsibility hanging on owner's
heads
they may be more careful in the control of who has access to their
firearms.Â* I am thinking of the kid in one of these shootings who got
the firearm from his mother who technically owned it.

Since there was no problem establishing who owned the gun, again, what
would registration accomplish?
It is just one more layer of bureaucracy and no doubt tax.
Laws requiring proper storage of the gun already exist, even in gun
friendly states like Florida but, since Lanza (Sandy Hook) shot his
mom when he took the gun, I doubt the law would have much punishment
available to use against her.



It's kinda fun watching you come up with every reason in the world
to do nothing.


At a certain point I think we have squeezed the gun issue about as
hard as we can. It is time to start trying to just stop the crazy
people who think it is OK to kill a bunch of innocent victims.
I have said many times, guns are for lazy people but it is far from
the only deadly thing out there. Some can be even more devastating.
There are plenty of industrial gasses that are totally unregulated and
have the ability to really do some damage.
How many people would recognize the smell of acetylene and know to run
like hell if they smelled it coming out of the vents in a building?



I guess this is what is called today as "having a conversation".

Nothing is really accomplished but points of view are identified.

Fretwell's point on industrial gases is...absurd.

On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 19:56:38 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Wayne.B wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:36:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

The laws governing the purchase of a shotgun in Florida are stricter
than those in Maryland.

I bought a shotgun in Florida back when we wintered down there after
we found a 4-5 foot rattlesnake coiled up at our front door one day.

Like Maryland, they did a quick telephone background check, rang me up
but I had to wait several days to pick it up and take it home.

Maryland lets you take it home the same day after the quick phone
background check.

===

Are you sure about that? I've never had to wait for anything other
than the background check and that only takes a few minutes, if that.
Filling out the form takes longer.


California used to have no waiting period for long guns, only handguns.
Not now, all have 10 day waiting period. I remember buying my Remington
1100 San Francisco Gun Exchange. Yes SF used to have gun stores. And
they wrapped it in brown paper and handed it to me. My Ithaca 37 from
monkey ward, handed to me with a box of gratis shells.

I am trying to remember the last gun I had to wait for. It was
certainly a while ago if ever. In Florida a CCW gets you out the door
as soon as the NICS check clears and you get the paperwork done.
I really have not bought than many guns tho. Nothing like Harry the
gun dealer or our resident collector.
The last handgun I bought from a store up north was before the GCA68
at Ye Olde Hunter in Alexandria and I think you just paid the man and
left with it. It was a half a century ago tho. I may be wrong ;-)

I wonder if anyone still has those records?