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Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:

I suggested an approach:

The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters,
have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on
the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public,
provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit
for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA
for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the
sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms.

I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets
his gun., The country is awash with them.
The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the
kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike
plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial
products are already available for that.
The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep
violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ...
like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he
would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had
followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10
years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:11:55 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Guess you're right. Nothing can be done. We'll just have to live with it.

And please don't give me the "lock up the school like a safe" BS. Many
or maybe even most schools do that now-a-days yet these nut-cases still
find a way to get in. Or, maybe they'll have to revert to sitting
outside waiting for the kiddies to exit to the school buses before he
mows them down.

No plan is absolute. It just seems to me that a response that is faster
than the police arriving may save some lives.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote:

You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids
got killed?

If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be
face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come
up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that
fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the
best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one
is based on where the shots are coming from.
Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They
were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARs ;-)

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:16:49 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/26/2018 1:57 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 13:53:23 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 2/26/18 11:54 AM, justan wrote:
Keyser Soze Wrote in message:
On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote:

I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it
comes to arming teachers. It's an
anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more.

I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too
many responsibilities already' as
a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a
load of responsibilities. But, when
the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I
don't think any unwilling teacher
would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a
gun does not add significantly to
the other duties of a teacher.

Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be
trained and
armed. It's certainly not mandatory.

Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a
gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers.
He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has
over 300 who want to attend.

Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor
of being trained and armed.

If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think
we'd see a lot more approval of
the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it,
CNN are reporting anything
positive about it.

The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many
responsibilities already is just
bull****.

CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html

NPR:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders

And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back
in 2014!

And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I
think all teachers would prefer
to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed
to being forced to shoot
them..."

It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****.

What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial
comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal.
Some *want* to be armed. Don't they have the same rights?

Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools.

How did that work in parkland?

You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

Rediculous. Do you think those teachers would go into a classroom
armed and without training? What training beyond video games does
the average mass murderer have?

A lot more firepower than a classroom teacher carrying a side arm, and
not caring whether he lives or dies.

Another stupid comment. You and your butt buddy are batting a thousand today.

We all forget .... Harry was a teacher at one time.

He says.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze
wrote:
On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote:
Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote:

I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers'
unions when it
comes to arming teachers. It's an
anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more.

I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted
who use 'too
many responsibilities already' as
a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that
teachers have a
load of responsibilities. But, when
the shooting starts only one takes precedence -
protecting kids. I
don't think any unwilling teacher
would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of
carrying a
gun does not add significantly to
the other duties of a teacher.

Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer
to be
trained and
armed.* It's certainly not mandatory.

Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have
responded to a
gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course
free to teachers.
He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I
heard now has
over 300 who want to attend.

Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many
teachers are in favor
of being trained and armed.

If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the
equation, I think
we'd see a lot more approval of
the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your
word for it,
CNN are reporting anything
positive about it.

The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too
many
responsibilities already is just
bull****.

CNN:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html

NPR:

https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders

And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a
restroom back
in 2014!

And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply
stupid: ""I
think all teachers would prefer
to be given the tools and resources to help our students,
as opposed
to being forced to shoot
them..."

It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote.
More bull****.

What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their
editorial
comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not
universal.
Some *want* to be armed.* Don't they have the same rights?

Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of
schools.

How did that work in parkland?

You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the
slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.* Why do
you think you're so much better than everyone else?

Excellent point.

I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat
as he is to make an easy target.

Have you seen this?* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot.* Perp was arrested, taken to
hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4

Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should
have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I
wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38
revolver but could be wrong.* Don't know what the daughter had.
I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you
can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times.

Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife
loves to shoot by the way.

I have one also.* My only revolver.* But after watching that video I
am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp.* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly
hit him a couple of times as well.

At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or
adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round
into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side
of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those
shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on
paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles
and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong
or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the
same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.

It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after
being hit by a .357 Mag round.

I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357
Mag you have room for error.

As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :)

I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.

I didn't know you had a Sig 226. One of my retired-cop brothers told me it was his favorite weapon.
That was a few years back, but it's what prompted me to my mine. I love it. I can shoot better with
it than any other handgun.

I took some friends from the Navy Band to our local range. One of them had a Glock, and he'd done
quite a bit of shooting. At seven yards he was getting a 6-7" spread. I let him shoot the 226 and
his spread dropped to 3-4". He couldn't believe it.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:32:34 -0500, John H.
wrote:

All it takes is one side door left unlocked or opened by a kid on the inside.

I suppose they could alarm the doors and that "hardened" school had a
bunch of surveillance, monitored from the office, with a link to the
cops. If the door alarm goes off in the office, they could look at the
monitor and know right away if this was a shooter or just a kid
sneaking out for a smoke.
You could harden a school pretty cheaply (in school board bucks) by
installing a bunch more cameras, a decent alarm/communication system
that indicated where the shooter was (display in each classroom) and
toughen up the classroom doors. If the shooter is trapped in the hall
with no one to shoot and being watched all the time. it would not be
that hard for the cops to hunt him down and kill him.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:14:11 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I doubt most teachers these days are capable of using a gun in that
kind of situation.
I have not really been a fan of this idea as any wide spread policy.
Certainly there will be some who are willing to take the proper
training but a gun in a school is a far more serious thing than your
average CCW situation. They should have tactical training and a ****
load of range time practicing practical shooting, not just slow fire
target practice.

What makes a properly trained teacher any different than anyone else who
has been trained and has a concealed carry permit for self defense?

Are you discriminating against teachers?

Teachers in general do not seem to have the temperament to actually
shoot someone in the back and that is what it takes. Nobody in their
right mind would have a fair fight with a guy with an AK/AR. You need
to surprise the guy, don't give him a chance at all and take him out.
Otherwise Harry is right, one dead teacher.
I also wonder how many CCW people would actually perform in a serious
social situation.

Teachers and guns

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4

Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy
anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style
was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim.
Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this
guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest.

Teachers and guns