Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:04:16 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote:


You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh?
Too funny. There would be another dead teacher.

A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids
got killed?

If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be
face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come
up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that
fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the
best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one
is based on where the shots are coming from.
Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They
were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARs ;-)



Question:

If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you
or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed?

I'd take armed. If I miss I might be dead.
If I am not armed, I am certainly dead.


The point is you never want to be face to face. You hear him coming,
take cover and blind side him, armed or not. I would have no problem
shooting someone like this without ever saying a word or giving him
any quarter.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:12:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:




Question:

If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you
or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed?

I'd take armed.Â* If I miss I might be dead.
If I am not armed, I am certainly dead.



I dunno. I am reminded of many shootouts with cops in which supposedly
well-trained officers fire dozens or hundreds of shots, still might not
hit their target(s), and spray bullets everywhere. Now, imagine that
sort of shootout at a school filled with hundreds or even thousands of
students, and the "good guy" doing the shooting is a teacher with maybe
one-twentieth of the training of a cop. Now, imagine the autopsies...and
the resulting lawsuits.

I knew lots of cops and one of our IBM guys was also a sworn deputy on
the Charlotte Sheriffs department. I have never heard one of them who
was a regular street cop who thought they were getting any decent
firearms training. There is certainly not enough tactical training
unless they are SWAT or something.
That is why my DC cop buddy was getting as much help as he could from
the FBI instructor. Of course the FBI has had their share of their
problems too.
I think the worst thing that happened to police marksmanship was the
9MM with double stack magazines. When they only had six, they had to
aim.
I have told the story about the CCSO and their drill where the cop had
to knock down 5 bowling pins at very close range. Shoot till you get
them all. They had plenty of road deputies who had to reload their 9.

The reality is most cops live their whole career and never fire their
gun in the line of duty. That is more true of FBI and other federal
agents than street cops. They spend more time on paper chases than
criminal chases.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:35:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy
anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style
was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim.
Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this
guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest.



Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh?

They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was
escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for
them.

One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first
came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter
did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer
screen. What was that all about?

Closing her facebook page?

Navy seal may be over the top but at least having some kind of plan
and a little more skill would have made that a much shorter video.
They acted like they had never actually shot their guns before.
They also did not have a clue about "retention". Even that superficial
CCW course I have done a few times talks about retention. You don't go
waving your gun around unless you want to lose it. You want it tight
to your chest, elbows in, until you extend and fire and if you are up
close you don't really extend that far. You might get hot brass up
your nose but you are less likely to lose the gun.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:46:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:18:12 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:52:34 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

a smart, level headed properly trained teacher.

That is the rub.

It's being done. Look at the links Luddite's provided.

Not all teachers are untrainable, stupid, space cadets.


Most are also not retired combat vets.


If that's the prerequisite for self-defense with a gun we're all in deep
doo-doo.

Less than 1 percent (current number is 0.5%) of population currently
serves in the military and it's been that way for about 20 years.

Of those who serve, 80 percent have no direct combat experience.

I was just referring to John

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:50:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:22 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 12:14 PM, True North wrote:

Wow! I guess they were lucky...notice that robber wrestled the gun from the mother...good thing she held him off for as long as she did.


I think they both needed a bigger gun. The one the mother had looked
like a .38 revolver. The daughter had some kind of small pistol. The
hits took a while but eventually you can see the perp starting to
stumble around.

That was when the other one was supposed to get behind him and put one
in his ear. Don't think about it or hesitate, just do it.
This is the violence of action I fear most teachers will lack too.


I am sure the daughter and her mother will heed your instruction next
time if they can stop shaking from this experience. Geeze Greg, cut
them some slack. They accomplished their goal. They're alive.


They are lucky that the bad guy was worse prepared than they were.
I hope someone worked with them a little since.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:11:15 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:36 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:44:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I have one also. My only revolver. But after watching that video I am
thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate.

Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the
perp. He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most
shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit
him a couple of times as well.

A bad shot with a .357 is nowhere as good as a well placed shot with a
.22
A FBI instructor told me years ago, "shoot what you can hit with"
after I was criticized about my "puny" .380 by my DC cop buddy.
They were friends and I tagged along several times for some free
lessons. His advice was you might be able to throw away your first
shot but then you better be aiming because any shock value to the
other guy of being shot at is gone. In those days (66-67) the
philosophy was get a round down range as fast as you can, then fire a
well aimed double tap from the Weaver position and assess.
These days just about all I do at the range with a handgun is extend
and fire from high retention as fast and smooth as I can. I practice
at various angles to the target and standing in various stances. My
only goal at this point is instinctively being able to get off one or
two shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards without really thinking about
aiming. Basically like skeet shooting, you hit where you are looking.




Hard to remember all this good advice with a guy waving a gun in your
face though. I can see it now:

That is why you want it to be pure muscle memory.
The only issue is whether you really are willing to kill someone at
that point. I hope I will make the right decision but I don't want to
have to think about the mechanical process. If I was really serious
about this I would also do malfunction drills assuming I have lost an
arm in the fight (reloads etc) but I have that street cop problem. How
hard do I want to work on an unlikely situation.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:14:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 4:57 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 3:45 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:



I suggested an approach:

The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters,
have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on
the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public,
provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit
for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA
for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the
sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms.

I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets
his gun., The country is awash with them.
The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the
kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike
plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial
products are already available for that.
The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep
violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ...
like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he
would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had
followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10
years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun.


Right, so 10 years later, he'd come out a much wilier, more capable
criminal. I'm not saying we shouldn't jail violent criminals, but what
that seems to produce with our ****ty, overcrowded prison system is more
hardened criminals. You have to wonder why we imprison more people than
anyone else, and a higher percentage of our population, too. It's just
another of our society's failures.


Yup. Even the prisons in the USA suck according to Harry.

We need more social workers and shrinks I guess. Except, they are swore
to secrecy.

My daughter's best friend when they were growing up was a prison
therapist for a while. She quit. It is largely hopeless. It was the
same prison where I watched a guy get killed.
This is not Sunday School.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:32:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 2/26/2018 5:29 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:



I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center
model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I
sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper
targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted
the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range.

I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home
defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with
criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer
times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could
represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often.

The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May
not put someone big down but they will catch his attention.
Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very
nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes.

Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting
chance if anything bad happens.


In the house I am showing up with a .45 but if it is just the 2 of us,
I will hole up in the bedroom, call 911 and drop anyone who comes
through the door.
It gets a lot more complicated if the kids are here.
I do think the dog helps. I can let the dog investigate bumps in the
night. I only hope he lives through it.


The lab I had (Sam Adams) would lick him to death.

What ever it takes to distract the guy. Most people get a little
nervous when an 80-100 pound dog comes toward them at night,
particularly if he is barking.
For the home owner, just the fact that the dog is alerted is enough to
warn them that things are not normal.

Teachers and guns
 

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:57:19 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:35:26 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H.
wrote:

On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter
are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital
in critical condition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4


Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in
shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting.
Maybe .25 caliber?

Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy
anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style
was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim.
Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this
guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest.



Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh?

They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was
escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for
them.

One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first
came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter
did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer
screen. What was that all about?

PC operated cash register? Maybe she was trying to open it to give him money.

The ones IBM had after about 1990 were PC based. They just had a
different skin on them and different I/O.
The ones at Burger King and Wendy's I worked on were PS/2 M/30s
The display plugged into the printer port, the keyboard was just a
custom keyboard, the receipt printer was on the serial port etc. They
were running DOS 3.3
Newer ones run Windows XP. That is why there is still a hack out there
to get updates on XP by calling it a point of sale terminal. Some of
the old PCs I have around here were POS terminals at Judy's club.
Instead of upgrading them for new software (more memory) they threw
them away and bought new.

Teachers and guns
 

Wrote in message:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:51:00 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote:



I suggested an approach:

The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters,
have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on
the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public,
provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit
for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA
for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the
sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms.

I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets
his gun., The country is awash with them.
The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the
kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike
plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial
products are already available for that.
The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep
violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ...
like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he
would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had
followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10
years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun.


You don't want to give the shrinks a shot at rehabilitating him?

This is Florida, we kill killers here. I hope he is in the express
line to the needle. He really deserves Old Sparky.
I still may not happen.
I imagine he will get life without parole ... then they will parole
him the next time we get a democrat governor.


Better keep that little snot Ayela off the case.
--
x


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