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Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:14 PM, True North wrote: Wow! I guess they were lucky...notice that robber wrestled the gun from the mother...good thing she held him off for as long as she did. I think they both needed a bigger gun. The one the mother had looked like a .38 revolver. The daughter had some kind of small pistol. The hits took a while but eventually you can see the perp starting to stumble around. That was when the other one was supposed to get behind him and put one in his ear. Don't think about it or hesitate, just do it. This is the violence of action I fear most teachers will lack too. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun. I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun. The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies. Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers. What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the same level of training in the use of firearms? Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be as genteel as the teachers. |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:44:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I have one also. My only revolver. But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp. He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. A bad shot with a .357 is nowhere as good as a well placed shot with a ..22 A FBI instructor told me years ago, "shoot what you can hit with" after I was criticized about my "puny" .380 by my DC cop buddy. They were friends and I tagged along several times for some free lessons. His advice was you might be able to throw away your first shot but then you better be aiming because any shock value to the other guy of being shot at is gone. In those days (66-67) the philosophy was get a round down range as fast as you can, then fire a well aimed double tap from the Weaver position and assess. These days just about all I do at the range with a handgun is extend and fire from high retention as fast and smooth as I can. I practice at various angles to the target and standing in various stances. My only goal at this point is instinctively being able to get off one or two shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards without really thinking about aiming. Basically like skeet shooting, you hit where you are looking. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:23:33 -0500, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun. I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun. The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies. Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers. What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the same level of training in the use of firearms? Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be as genteel as the teachers. Au contraire mon frère! You forget the 'mother' or 'father' instinct that would kick in when someone starts messing with a teacher's kids. Our opinions of janitors and teachers differs tremendously in this regard. |
Teachers and guns
Wrote in message:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. You don't want to give the shrinks a shot at rehabilitating him? -- x ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On 2/26/18 3:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote: I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it comes to arming teachers. It's an anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more. I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too many responsibilities already' as a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a load of responsibilities. But, when the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I don't think any unwilling teacher would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a gun does not add significantly to the other duties of a teacher. Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be trained and armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory. Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers. He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has over 300 who want to attend. Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor of being trained and armed. If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think we'd see a lot more approval of the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it, CNN are reporting anything positive about it. The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many responsibilities already is just bull****. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back in 2014! And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I think all teachers would prefer to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed to being forced to shoot them..." It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****. What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal. Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights? Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools. How did that work in parkland? You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do you think you're so much better than everyone else? Excellent point. I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat as he is to make an easy target. Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38 revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had. I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times. Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife loves to shoot by the way. I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after being hit by a .357 Mag round. I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357 Mag you have room for error. As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :) I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model.Â* It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it.Â* Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk.Â* Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though.Â* It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. I had a Sig 226 X-5 for a while. Sold it to get a CZ competition pistol. Nothing wrong with the Sig, but the CZ was more accurate and cycled faster. What Walther do you have? |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:00 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote: I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it comes to arming teachers. It's an anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more. I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too many responsibilities already' as a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a load of responsibilities. But, when the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I don't think any unwilling teacher would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a gun does not add significantly to the other duties of a teacher. Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be trained and armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory. Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers. He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has over 300 who want to attend. Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor of being trained and armed. If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think we'd see a lot more approval of the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it, CNN are reporting anything positive about it. The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many responsibilities already is just bull****. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back in 2014! And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I think all teachers would prefer to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed to being forced to shoot them..." It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****. What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal. Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights? Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools. How did that work in parkland? You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do you think you're so much better than everyone else? Excellent point. I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat as he is to make an easy target. Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38 revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had. I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times. Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife loves to shoot by the way. I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after being hit by a .357 Mag round. I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357 Mag you have room for error. As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :) I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. I didn't know you had a Sig 226. One of my retired-cop brothers told me it was his favorite weapon. That was a few years back, but it's what prompted me to my mine. I love it. I can shoot better with it than any other handgun. I took some friends from the Navy Band to our local range. One of them had a Glock, and he'd done quite a bit of shooting. At seven yards he was getting a 6-7" spread. I let him shoot the 226 and his spread dropped to 3-4". He couldn't believe it. I don't have a 226. I screwed up trying to remember the model from memory. For some reason "226" came up. I have the little guy ... the Sig P238. It's my "carry". Looks just like this one: https://topgunsupply.r.worldssl.net/images/P/p238-rosewood-detail-l.jpg |
Teachers and guns
On 2/26/18 5:04 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids got killed? If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one is based on where the shots are coming from. Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARsÂ* ;-) Question: If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed? I'd take armed.Â* If I miss I might be dead. If I am not armed, I am certainly dead. I dunno. I am reminded of many shootouts with cops in which supposedly well-trained officers fire dozens or hundreds of shots, still might not hit their target(s), and spray bullets everywhere. Now, imagine that sort of shootout at a school filled with hundreds or even thousands of students, and the "good guy" doing the shooting is a teacher with maybe one-twentieth of the training of a cop. Now, imagine the autopsies...and the resulting lawsuits. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. In the house I am showing up with a .45 but if it is just the 2 of us, I will hole up in the bedroom, call 911 and drop anyone who comes through the door. It gets a lot more complicated if the kids are here. I do think the dog helps. I can let the dog investigate bumps in the night. I only hope he lives through it. |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:19 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:18:12 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:52:34 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote: a smart, level headed properly trained teacher. That is the rub. It's being done. Look at the links Luddite's provided. Not all teachers are untrainable, stupid, space cadets. Most are also not retired combat vets. If that's the prerequisite for self-defense with a gun we're all in deep doo-doo. Less than 1 percent (current number is 0.5%) of population currently serves in the military and it's been that way for about 20 years. Of those who serve, 80 percent have no direct combat experience. |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:23 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun. I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun. The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies. Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers. What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the same level of training in the use of firearms? Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be as genteel as the teachers. LOL |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:11:56 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 2/26/2018 4:00 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote: I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it comes to arming teachers. It's an anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more. I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too many responsibilities already' as a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a load of responsibilities. But, when the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I don't think any unwilling teacher would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a gun does not add significantly to the other duties of a teacher. Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be trained and armed.* It's certainly not mandatory. Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers. He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has over 300 who want to attend. Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor of being trained and armed. If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think we'd see a lot more approval of the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it, CNN are reporting anything positive about it. The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many responsibilities already is just bull****. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back in 2014! And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I think all teachers would prefer to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed to being forced to shoot them..." It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****. What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal. Some *want* to be armed.* Don't they have the same rights? Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools. How did that work in parkland? You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.* Why do you think you're so much better than everyone else? Excellent point. I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat as he is to make an easy target. Have you seen this?* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot.* Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38 revolver but could be wrong.* Don't know what the daughter had. I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times. Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife loves to shoot by the way. I have one also.* My only revolver.* But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp.* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after being hit by a .357 Mag round. I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357 Mag you have room for error. As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :) I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. I didn't know you had a Sig 226. One of my retired-cop brothers told me it was his favorite weapon. That was a few years back, but it's what prompted me to my mine. I love it. I can shoot better with it than any other handgun. I took some friends from the Navy Band to our local range. One of them had a Glock, and he'd done quite a bit of shooting. At seven yards he was getting a 6-7" spread. I let him shoot the 226 and his spread dropped to 3-4". He couldn't believe it. I don't have a 226. I screwed up trying to remember the model from memory. For some reason "226" came up. I have the little guy ... the Sig P238. It's my "carry". Looks just like this one: https://topgunsupply.r.worldssl.net/images/P/p238-rosewood-detail-l.jpg Yeah, I remember the P238. I've got the little P938 for a carry. |
Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:36 PM, John H. wrote:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:23:33 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:24:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:00 PM, wrote: I agree most teachers are not going to be good candidates The janitor might be a better candidate for carrying the gun. I do think the school systems with these "diversion" programs where they fail to report criminal students are partially responsible. If Parkland HS had reported the crimes Cruz committed in school, he would have a record that would have prevented him from buying the gun. The Sheriff also failed to act on credible reports of felonies. Heh. I have to chuckle. You *are* discriminating against teachers. What makes them any different than the janitor if they both have the same level of training in the use of firearms? Without resorting to stereotypes I will guess the janitor might not be as genteel as the teachers. Au contraire mon frère! You forget the 'mother' or 'father' instinct that would kick in when someone starts messing with a teacher's kids. Our opinions of janitors and teachers differs tremendously in this regard. I agree. A good teacher has a bit of a maternal/paternal sense of commitment to the kids in their charge, especially for very young kids like those killed at Sandy Hook. The janitor with nothing to lose except his own life might be the first to exit stage left. Then again, I have heard of janitors that have a deep affection for kids in their schools and would probably lay down their own life to save a kid or two like the football coach in Florida. He wasn't a teacher. He was a coach and unarmed security guard. Bottom line is .. we are all people and, until faced with the challenge, nobody really knows how they would react. Training at the range or hunting groundhogs just isn't the same, IMO. |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:57 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 3:45 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. Right, so 10 years later, he'd come out a much wilier, more capable criminal. I'm not saying we shouldn't jail violent criminals, but what that seems to produce with our ****ty, overcrowded prison system is more hardened criminals. You have to wonder why we imprison more people than anyone else, and a higher percentage of our population, too. It's just another of our society's failures. Yup. Even the prisons in the USA suck according to Harry. We need more social workers and shrinks I guess. Except, they are swore to secrecy. |
Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 4:59 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 3:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote: I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it comes to arming teachers. It's an anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more. I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too many responsibilities already' as a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a load of responsibilities. But, when the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I don't think any unwilling teacher would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a gun does not add significantly to the other duties of a teacher. Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be trained and armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory. Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers. He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has over 300 who want to attend. Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor of being trained and armed. If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think we'd see a lot more approval of the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it, CNN are reporting anything positive about it. The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many responsibilities already is just bull****. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back in 2014! And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I think all teachers would prefer to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed to being forced to shoot them..." It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****. What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal. Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights? Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools. How did that work in parkland? You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do you think you're so much better than everyone else? Excellent point. I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat as he is to make an easy target. Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38 revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had. I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times. Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife loves to shoot by the way. I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after being hit by a .357 Mag round. I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357 Mag you have room for error. As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :) I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model.Â* It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it.Â* Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk.Â* Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though.Â* It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. I had a Sig 226 X-5 for a while. Sold it to get a CZ competition pistol. Nothing wrong with the Sig, but the CZ was more accurate and cycled faster. What Walther do you have? I forget. Wait, I'll go open the safe and look ...... It's a Walther PPK 380 APC. It's an old design, originally released in 1930. Here ... I just took a selfie of me holding it ... https://tinyurl.com/y77mv7sh |
Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 5:12 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 2/26/18 5:04 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids got killed? If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one is based on where the shots are coming from. Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARsÂ* ;-) Question: If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed? I'd take armed.Â* If I miss I might be dead. If I am not armed, I am certainly dead. I dunno. I am reminded of many shootouts with cops in which supposedly well-trained officers fire dozens or hundreds of shots, still might not hit their target(s), and spray bullets everywhere. Now, imagine that sort of shootout at a school filled with hundreds or even thousands of students, and the "good guy" doing the shooting is a teacher with maybe one-twentieth of the training of a cop. Now, imagine the autopsies...and the resulting lawsuits. Face to face and you'd still miss? You need more range time practice. |
Teachers and guns
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Teachers and guns
On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:35:26 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim. Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest. Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh? They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for them. One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer screen. What was that all about? PC operated cash register? Maybe she was trying to open it to give him money. |
Teachers and guns
On 2/26/2018 7:57 PM, Its Me wrote:
On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:35:26 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim. Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest. Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh? They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for them. One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer screen. What was that all about? PC operated cash register? Maybe she was trying to open it to give him money. That's probably it. Didn't think of that. |
Teachers and guns
True North wrote:
On Monday, 26 February 2018 14:52:39 UTC-4, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 11:52 AM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote: a smart, level headed properly trained teacher. That is the rub. Fortunately, Justan couldn't qualify on any of those counts. :) Neither did The John ...good thing they weren't arming teachers when he was doing his part to drop the average level of education in the US. Does calling other posters names make y'all feel better about yourself, Dummy? |
Teachers and guns
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 2/26/2018 4:59 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 3:37 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 2:08 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:35 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:22:38 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:15 PM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 11:33 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:19:23 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 10:55:20 AM UTC-5, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 10:30 AM, Bill wrote: Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 9:35 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 9:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 09:06:01 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:55 AM, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:31:32 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 8:16 AM, John H. wrote: I am not surprised at the stance of the teachers' unions when it comes to arming teachers. It's an anti-Trump stance, and I'd expect nothing more. I am surprised at the number of teachers being quoted who use 'too many responsibilities already' as a reason for not arming teachers. It's true that teachers have a load of responsibilities. But, when the shooting starts only one takes precedence - protecting kids. I don't think any unwilling teacher would be asked to carry a gun. And, the simple act of carrying a gun does not add significantly to the other duties of a teacher. Trump's proposal calls only for teachers who volunteer to be trained and armed.Â* It's certainly not mandatory. Not as well reported is that hundreds of teachers have responded to a gun course instructor in Ohio who offered his course free to teachers. He initially planned on about 50 respondents but last I heard now has over 300 who want to attend. Even NPR and CNN have quietly reported that many teachers are in favor of being trained and armed. If the 'anti-Trump' politics were taken out of the equation, I think we'd see a lot more approval of the idea. I am surprised that NBC and, I'll take your word for it, CNN are reporting anything positive about it. The idea that carrying would overload a teacher with too many responsibilities already is just bull****. CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/24/us/armed-teachers-states-trnd/index.html NPR: https://www.npr.org/sections/ed/2017/06/25/534230962/colorado-teachers-get-gun-training-as-first-responders And, oh my gosh, a teacher's gun accidentally fired in a restroom back in 2014! And comments like this from the NPR article, are simply stupid: ""I think all teachers would prefer to be given the tools and resources to help our students, as opposed to being forced to shoot them..." It's that stupidity that the liberal news tends to quote. More bull****. What struck me was that both articles gloss over (in their editorial comments) the fact that teachers against being armed is not universal. Some *want* to be armed.Â* Don't they have the same rights? Most Americans would prefer that firearms be kept out of schools. How did that work in parkland? You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. You think *you* would be able to shoot a home invader.Â* Why do you think you're so much better than everyone else? Excellent point. I suppose he thinks the home invader would be unarmed and as fat as he is to make an easy target. Have you seen this?Â* Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot.Â* Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? I don't know. I think I recognized the mother's gun as being a .38 revolver but could be wrong.Â* Don't know what the daughter had. I mentioned in a reply to Don that it took a while but eventually you can see the robber starting to stumble due to being shot several times. Yeah, the mother's looked like a .38 Chief's Special, which my wife loves to shoot by the way. I have one also.Â* My only revolver.Â* But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp.Â* He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. At any distance within this house, meaning in any room, hallway or adjacent rooms, I can fling a .357 Mag Hornady Critical Defense round into the chest of a home invader, if he is facing me, or into the side of his upper body if he is standing at an angle. I've practiced those shots hundreds and hundreds of times, from distances of 3' to 25' on paper targets, blocks of ballistic gel, and two liter sodapop bottles and empty sodapop and beer cans. Double action or single action, strong or weak handed. This is no great accomplishment. You can do that the same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice. It is unlikely the home invader will continue what he came to do after being hit by a .357 Mag round. I'm sure a well-placed 9mm round will do almost as well, but with a .357 Mag you have room for error. As Greg pointed out the other day, the noise is horrendous. :) I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model.Â* It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it.Â* Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk.Â* Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though.Â* It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. I had a Sig 226 X-5 for a while. Sold it to get a CZ competition pistol. Nothing wrong with the Sig, but the CZ was more accurate and cycled faster. What Walther do you have? I forget. Wait, I'll go open the safe and look ...... It's a Walther PPK 380 APC. It's an old design, originally released in 1930. Here ... I just took a selfie of me holding it ... https://tinyurl.com/y77mv7sh LOL! |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:51:00 -0500 (EST), justan wrote:
Wrote in message: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. You don't want to give the shrinks a shot at rehabilitating him? This is Florida, we kill killers here. I hope he is in the express line to the needle. He really deserves Old Sparky. I still may not happen. I imagine he will get life without parole ... then they will parole him the next time we get a democrat governor. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:57:47 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote: On 2/26/18 3:45 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. Right, so 10 years later, he'd come out a much wilier, more capable criminal. I'm not saying we shouldn't jail violent criminals, but what that seems to produce with our ****ty, overcrowded prison system is more hardened criminals. You have to wonder why we imprison more people than anyone else, and a higher percentage of our population, too. It's just another of our society's failures. You are making a better case for the death penalty than I have heard for a while. We can only hope he will say the wrong thing to someone and get his ass shanked. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:04:16 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 3:54 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:28:02 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:55:16 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: You think a teacher with a handgun would have stopped the slaughter, eh? Too funny. There would be another dead teacher. A couple rounds in his general direction may have had him leaving the school. Better that the kids got killed? If the shots miss, Harry is probably right. I would not want to be face to face with a AR and only have a pistol. OTOH if you just come up behind this guy and put one in the back of his head, you win that fight. To that end, someone with tactical skills should identify the best places to wait and have your armed people know where the best one is based on where the shots are coming from. Maybe we can scour the 7-11s and find some old Vietcong guys. They were pretty good at ambushing guys with ARs ;-) Question: If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed? I'd take armed. If I miss I might be dead. If I am not armed, I am certainly dead. The point is you never want to be face to face. You hear him coming, take cover and blind side him, armed or not. I would have no problem shooting someone like this without ever saying a word or giving him any quarter. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:12:41 -0500, Keyser Soze
wrote: Question: If you come face to face with a guy with an AR-15 intent on killing you or anyone around you, would you rather be armed or disarmed? I'd take armed.Â* If I miss I might be dead. If I am not armed, I am certainly dead. I dunno. I am reminded of many shootouts with cops in which supposedly well-trained officers fire dozens or hundreds of shots, still might not hit their target(s), and spray bullets everywhere. Now, imagine that sort of shootout at a school filled with hundreds or even thousands of students, and the "good guy" doing the shooting is a teacher with maybe one-twentieth of the training of a cop. Now, imagine the autopsies...and the resulting lawsuits. I knew lots of cops and one of our IBM guys was also a sworn deputy on the Charlotte Sheriffs department. I have never heard one of them who was a regular street cop who thought they were getting any decent firearms training. There is certainly not enough tactical training unless they are SWAT or something. That is why my DC cop buddy was getting as much help as he could from the FBI instructor. Of course the FBI has had their share of their problems too. I think the worst thing that happened to police marksmanship was the 9MM with double stack magazines. When they only had six, they had to aim. I have told the story about the CCSO and their drill where the cop had to knock down 5 bowling pins at very close range. Shoot till you get them all. They had plenty of road deputies who had to reload their 9. The reality is most cops live their whole career and never fire their gun in the line of duty. That is more true of FBI and other federal agents than street cops. They spend more time on paper chases than criminal chases. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:35:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim. Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest. Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh? They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for them. One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer screen. What was that all about? Closing her facebook page? Navy seal may be over the top but at least having some kind of plan and a little more skill would have made that a much shorter video. They acted like they had never actually shot their guns before. They also did not have a clue about "retention". Even that superficial CCW course I have done a few times talks about retention. You don't go waving your gun around unless you want to lose it. You want it tight to your chest, elbows in, until you extend and fire and if you are up close you don't really extend that far. You might get hot brass up your nose but you are less likely to lose the gun. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:46:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:19 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:18:12 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:52:34 -0500, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 08:50:28 -0500 (EST), justan wrote: a smart, level headed properly trained teacher. That is the rub. It's being done. Look at the links Luddite's provided. Not all teachers are untrainable, stupid, space cadets. Most are also not retired combat vets. If that's the prerequisite for self-defense with a gun we're all in deep doo-doo. Less than 1 percent (current number is 0.5%) of population currently serves in the military and it's been that way for about 20 years. Of those who serve, 80 percent have no direct combat experience. I was just referring to John |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 17:50:43 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:22 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 2/26/2018 12:14 PM, True North wrote: Wow! I guess they were lucky...notice that robber wrestled the gun from the mother...good thing she held him off for as long as she did. I think they both needed a bigger gun. The one the mother had looked like a .38 revolver. The daughter had some kind of small pistol. The hits took a while but eventually you can see the perp starting to stumble around. That was when the other one was supposed to get behind him and put one in his ear. Don't think about it or hesitate, just do it. This is the violence of action I fear most teachers will lack too. I am sure the daughter and her mother will heed your instruction next time if they can stop shaking from this experience. Geeze Greg, cut them some slack. They accomplished their goal. They're alive. They are lucky that the bad guy was worse prepared than they were. I hope someone worked with them a little since. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 18:11:15 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:36 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:44:53 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I have one also. My only revolver. But after watching that video I am thinking maybe a .357 revolver would be more appropriate. Then again, it's not clear how many times the mother actually hit the perp. He was out of the camera range when she was firing the most shots. She hit him once in the arm looks like. The daughter clearly hit him a couple of times as well. A bad shot with a .357 is nowhere as good as a well placed shot with a .22 A FBI instructor told me years ago, "shoot what you can hit with" after I was criticized about my "puny" .380 by my DC cop buddy. They were friends and I tagged along several times for some free lessons. His advice was you might be able to throw away your first shot but then you better be aiming because any shock value to the other guy of being shot at is gone. In those days (66-67) the philosophy was get a round down range as fast as you can, then fire a well aimed double tap from the Weaver position and assess. These days just about all I do at the range with a handgun is extend and fire from high retention as fast and smooth as I can. I practice at various angles to the target and standing in various stances. My only goal at this point is instinctively being able to get off one or two shots into a 6" circle at 7 yards without really thinking about aiming. Basically like skeet shooting, you hit where you are looking. Hard to remember all this good advice with a guy waving a gun in your face though. I can see it now: That is why you want it to be pure muscle memory. The only issue is whether you really are willing to kill someone at that point. I hope I will make the right decision but I don't want to have to think about the mechanical process. If I was really serious about this I would also do malfunction drills assuming I have lost an arm in the fight (reloads etc) but I have that street cop problem. How hard do I want to work on an unlikely situation. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:14:08 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:57 PM, Keyser Soze wrote: On 2/26/18 3:45 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. Right, so 10 years later, he'd come out a much wilier, more capable criminal. I'm not saying we shouldn't jail violent criminals, but what that seems to produce with our ****ty, overcrowded prison system is more hardened criminals. You have to wonder why we imprison more people than anyone else, and a higher percentage of our population, too. It's just another of our society's failures. Yup. Even the prisons in the USA suck according to Harry. We need more social workers and shrinks I guess. Except, they are swore to secrecy. My daughter's best friend when they were growing up was a prison therapist for a while. She quit. It is largely hopeless. It was the same prison where I watched a guy get killed. This is not Sunday School. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 19:32:12 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 2/26/2018 5:29 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 15:37:57 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I had a .357 Magnum revolver. It was the S&W 627 Performance Center model. It was impressive but once I got over the "new-ness" of it, I sorta lost interest in it. Just made a little larger hole in paper targets with a lot more noise and greater expense per round. I've posted the link to a YouTube video here in the past of shooting it at the range. I am at the point where all I am interested in is something for home defense in the improbable chance anyone tried to enter our house with criminal intent and a small concealed carry pistol for the even rarer times I carry .... which is only when we are going somewhere that could represent a higher than normal risk. Doesn't happen often. The little .38 Special and the Sig 226 will serve those purposes. May not put someone big down but they will catch his attention. Still debating about getting rid of the Walther though. It's a very nice, accurate handgun, but a little too big for concealed carry purposes. Guns don't fascinate me but as we get older we may need a fighting chance if anything bad happens. In the house I am showing up with a .45 but if it is just the 2 of us, I will hole up in the bedroom, call 911 and drop anyone who comes through the door. It gets a lot more complicated if the kids are here. I do think the dog helps. I can let the dog investigate bumps in the night. I only hope he lives through it. The lab I had (Sam Adams) would lick him to death. What ever it takes to distract the guy. Most people get a little nervous when an 80-100 pound dog comes toward them at night, particularly if he is barking. For the home owner, just the fact that the dog is alerted is enough to warn them that things are not normal. |
Teachers and guns
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:57:19 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote: On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 5:35:26 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 2/26/2018 4:18 PM, wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 12:15:49 -0500, John H. wrote: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:56:05 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Have you seen this? Just happened the other day. Mother and daughter are damn lucky neither were shot. Perp was arrested, taken to hospital in critical condition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwiSl_zuSd4 Hadn't seen it. Agree that they were damn lucky. They both should have taken some lessons in shooting also! It seemed like they hit the guy several times, I wonder what they were shooting. Maybe .25 caliber? Looks like .38s to me and I am not surprised they didn't hit this guy anywhere serious. They used horrible tactics and their shooting style was "unique" to say the least. Someone needed to remind them to aim. Two armed people, in familiar surroundings should have trapped this guy in a crossfire and fired from cover with a decent rest. Yeah Greg, they should have acted more like Navy Seals, huh? They accomplished their objective. They are not hurt and the perp was escorted to the hospital by the police in critical condition. Good for them. One thing I didn't understand in that video though ... when he first came around the counter banishing his gun the first thing the daughter did was reach for the mouse on the counter while looking at the computer screen. What was that all about? PC operated cash register? Maybe she was trying to open it to give him money. The ones IBM had after about 1990 were PC based. They just had a different skin on them and different I/O. The ones at Burger King and Wendy's I worked on were PS/2 M/30s The display plugged into the printer port, the keyboard was just a custom keyboard, the receipt printer was on the serial port etc. They were running DOS 3.3 Newer ones run Windows XP. That is why there is still a hack out there to get updates on XP by calling it a point of sale terminal. Some of the old PCs I have around here were POS terminals at Judy's club. Instead of upgrading them for new software (more memory) they threw them away and bought new. |
Teachers and guns
Wrote in message:
On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 16:51:00 -0500 (EST), justan wrote: Wrote in message: On Mon, 26 Feb 2018 11:08:41 -0500, Keyser Soze wrote: I suggested an approach: The answer is to harden the entry to schools, watch closely who enters, have bulletproof doors to classrooms, do what is possible to cut down on the number and sorts of firearms available to the general public, provide a higher level of counseling to students, raise the age limit for obtaining a rifle, have better background checks, and treat the NRA for what it is...a trade association that exists mostly to promote the sale of firearms and ammo and lobbies for more and more firearms. I really doubt new laws do anything but change how the bad guy gets his gun., The country is awash with them. The bullet proof door is not really necessary if the teacher gets the kids out of the line if fire but you may want to armor the strike plate a little better so it is hard to shoot out the lock. Commercial products are already available for that. The one you miss is get rid of the diversion programs that keep violent kids out of jail. That may be exactly where they belong ... like this ****er. If the school had pursued the charges they had, he would not have passed the background check. If the Sheriff had followed up on the complaints, he would have been in prison for 10 years, just on the aggravated assault with a gun. You don't want to give the shrinks a shot at rehabilitating him? This is Florida, we kill killers here. I hope he is in the express line to the needle. He really deserves Old Sparky. I still may not happen. I imagine he will get life without parole ... then they will parole him the next time we get a democrat governor. Better keep that little snot Ayela off the case. -- x ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
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