On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:23:33 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/4/2018 2:53 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:16:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 1:07 PM, John H wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 12:42:29 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/4/2018 12:20 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Jan 2018 08:54:03 -0500, John H
wrote:

On Wed, 3 Jan 2018 17:19:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 1/3/2018 2:28 PM, Its Me wrote:
Light flurries now, the predictions range from a dusting to 1-2 inches. Worse the closer to the coast you get. My BIL at James Island (Charleston) sent a picture earlier of maybe 1/4 inch and still falling. Very unusual for them.

It's out of here in a few hours and headed up the coast. Good luck!



Damn. I was hoping it would dump a foot in Mt. Pleasant, just to shut
my son up.

Last I heard it is supposed to "explode" as it comes up the coast,
becoming essentially a winter hurricane.

"Bombogenesis" is the technical term, and the popular "bomb cyclone" is a shortened version of it,
according to our weather folks.

They do seem to just make up names for things these days. I think the
classic was "Super Storm Sandy" to talk about something that was not
even a hurricane, it was just "super" for people who were not used to
tropical weather.
It is far from unprecedented tho. There was a real Cat 3 there in the
30s.
I have certainly seen that weather pattern in DC tho and this is not
even the worst case. The snow would actually be more of a problem if
the "eye" of that low was farther west so your wind was drawing wet
gulf stream air up into the cold front north of you. That is what
gives DC over a foot of snow a day and if it stalls, you
"Knickerbocker" snow.


Up here a Cat 1 hurricane in the summer might be preferable over what is
going on right now. When you look at this storm on radar it is
developing a very defined rotation as it is winding up and getting
bigger. Snowfall rate here is 2-3 inches/hr and the temp is dropping
like a rock since this morning. Pretty much a white-out out there.

Major flooding in Justin's former town with 4 disabled cars with people
trapped inside, one a woman with 2 kids. Water is over the wheel wells.
Fire and National Guard are responding.

My old stomping grounds in Scituate is really getting clobbered ...
worst in over 30 years despite improvements in sea walls, etc. A TV
reporter nut was standing on the porch of a house about 30 feet from the
seawall and he was getting soaked with spray, along with dodging sea ice
that is being thrown up onto the roofs of houses.

So far we haven't had any power glitches here but I fully expect we'll
lose it in the next hour or so. Wind where I am is gusting 55-60 mph.

Best of luck in all that. I think I'd be getting out the extension cords and prioritizing my
electricity requirements!


Did that yesterday ... that's why I was firing up the Honda to test.

I have a new plan. If power goes out I am going to shut off the main
breaker and then backfeed the generator output through a 15 amp outlet
that's in the shed. It's on the same branch of the split 240v house
supply as the furnace and a couple of rooms. All my lighting is LED, so
that's a tiny load. The generator will run those plus the furnace
system with no problem and I don't need to have extension cords running
anywhere.


Well, you know more about electricity than I do. That's something I'd never try. Came across this
while looking for info. Don't know if it'll help or you already have it down.

http://www.tcscooters.com/backfeed.htm

I like steps 1-3:

If you are going to backfeed your home, you must be very carefully and follow the directions below.
If you fail to follow them you can kill a line worker, kill yourself or blow up your generator.
Again I'll say, get a licensed electrician.

Step One, the most important step of all is to turn off the main breakers.
Step two, turn off the main breakers.
Step three, turn off the main breakers. Do you get the idea?
Step four, remember to plug the generator end in last. If the generator is running and you are using
two male ends the house end plug is live!



I definitely agree that not everyone should do this. The best way is to
have an automatic transfer box installed to code by a licensed electrician.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 6:01:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.

I guess I'm thinking more about residential electricians who rarely touch industrial, 3 phase power systems where triplen harmonics really cause problems. SC has no CE requirements for electricians/electrical contractors.

An electrical engineer should be designing the distribution system for that power, and the electrician installing it by the print, IMO. I can certainly understand the union shop being snotty... I've experienced it firsthand.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 15:18:44 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 6:01:32 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.

I guess I'm thinking more about residential electricians who rarely touch industrial, 3 phase power systems where triplen harmonics really cause problems. SC has no CE requirements for electricians/electrical contractors.

That is true. It is hard to find a house in the US with 3p although I
tried to get it in Maryland, just because of the access I had to
cheap/free 3p equipment. It probably would have been red leg but I
could deal with that. They still would not drop me another
transformer.
It is crazy that your state does not have a CEU requirement.

An electrical engineer should be designing the distribution system for that power, and the electrician installing it by the print, IMO. I can certainly understand the union shop being snotty... I've experienced it firsthand.

This was GSA (federal government) union workers so that is
incompetence squared.

This was not the first time I dealt with them. The Bureau of
Radiological Health was building a computer room in the early 70s. GSA
got the job because it was "government"
The first day they showed up at 10AM and left at 2 with an hour off
for lunch and they did not really do anything but walk around and
look. The second day they showed up at 10 again and said they still
did not have all the materials they needed and basically did not get
much done then either.
The guy who was trying to get the work done got so frustrated he just
went into his discretionary budget, called a regular contractor and
got the whole thing done in a day.
The GSA guys tried to protest but it turned out this was a leased
building and GSA was not really supposed to be there anyway.

On 1/4/2018 6:01 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.



I am sure some electricians do learn theory however I agree with Its Me.
When new stuff comes along the code is just rewritten in terms of how to
wire for the new stuff. The code tells them when arc suppressors are
necessary, for example, but the electrician doesn't necessarily know why.

I have a fairly solid understanding of electrical wiring and power
distribution. However, I am totally ignorant of what current building
codes are. I wouldn't even consider doing a new residential service or
even a major renovation of an existing service myself. I'd hire a
licensed electrician.

On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 22:27:41 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/4/2018 6:01 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:01:34 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:


That's because electricians are schooled on the mechanics of wiring, but not theory. If a device's tag says it draws 30 amps, they know what size and type wire for the run to it (or where to look in the NEC book to find it), breaker size and type, conduit or not, etc. I'd bet close to half don't understand that the two legs are actually 180 degrees out of phase. Their exposure to theory is very brief, then it moves on to mechanics. Nothing wrong with that. The book tells them what size neutral, too.

That was true in places where training is left to the unions but
places that get actual continuing education for the new guys (and the
old guys) will be exposed to a lot more theory.
Union training is basically the old guys dribbling out what they know
to the new guys over 4 years. Very little new ever penetrates that
cycle.
I remember trying to explain triplin harmonics to a bunch of union GSA
electricians and having them tell me how long they had been wiring and
how I was just a snot nosed kid who didn't know ****.
A week later when their neutrals were burning up, the manager told
them they needed to listen to me.
Nobody had ever seen electronic ballasts and switching power supplies
before the 70s and 80s but they learned.



I am sure some electricians do learn theory however I agree with Its Me.
When new stuff comes along the code is just rewritten in terms of how to
wire for the new stuff. The code tells them when arc suppressors are
necessary, for example, but the electrician doesn't necessarily know why.

I have a fairly solid understanding of electrical wiring and power
distribution. However, I am totally ignorant of what current building
codes are. I wouldn't even consider doing a new residential service or
even a major renovation of an existing service myself. I'd hire a
licensed electrician.

I can't speak for the mobbed up union states but I changed from the
inspector trade association (IAEI) to the contractor group (ECF) many
years ago and I talk to those guys a lot. (they are more fun) They get
a lot of basic theory in their CEUs these days and I have never met
one of them who was confused by neutral loads. It is dealt with
extensively in NEC articles 215 and 220. These are generally the
license holders but we also see a lot of journeymen.