On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.



Massachusetts has three zones for codes regarding wind. Zone One is the
western part of the state and the code is for 70 mph winds. Zone Two
covers the middle portion of the state and has an 80 mph wind code.
Zone Three (where we are) is the eastern part of the state and has 90
mph codes. All are as measured 30 feet above ground.

Code issues we have to deal with that you don't is snow and drift snow
loading on the roof and can be very complicated, factoring type of
roofline, intersecting roof lines, etc. I was just looking at the
equations used to determine the load requirements and got a headache.

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

If everything was pegged floor to roof peak it might come close to
code, particularly if the uprights were buried deep enough in the
ground.

On 9/18/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

If everything was pegged floor to roof peak it might come close to
code, particularly if the uprights were buried deep enough in the
ground.


The interior cedar uprights aren't buried at all and the exterior wall
framing sits on a foundation made of rocks.

I think the reason it has survived is because the "peg" fastening
construction that allows the whole barn to "flex" and give a bit, much
like the wings on a commercial airplane that is riveted rather than
welded. If it (and wings) were stiff, it would be ripped apart in
strong wings.

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:50:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

If everything was pegged floor to roof peak it might come close to
code, particularly if the uprights were buried deep enough in the
ground.


The interior cedar uprights aren't buried at all and the exterior wall
framing sits on a foundation made of rocks.

I think the reason it has survived is because the "peg" fastening
construction that allows the whole barn to "flex" and give a bit, much
like the wings on a commercial airplane that is riveted rather than
welded. If it (and wings) were stiff, it would be ripped apart in
strong wings.

A truly strong wind against the long side would probably toss it over
but you don't really get Cat3 and 4 up there. The direction of the
wind also makes a huge difference. You can see that, just driving
around my neighborhood If it is hitting the corner I doubt it sees
much at all except the racking force and those pegs will absorb a
whole lot of that. It is the racking that kills screen cages. When I
had mine built to the 140 mph code they added a bunch of rigid cross
members at angles across the roof to stiffen it up. I have had 3 major
hurricanes and it seemed to work.

On 9/18/2017 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:50:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

If everything was pegged floor to roof peak it might come close to
code, particularly if the uprights were buried deep enough in the
ground.


The interior cedar uprights aren't buried at all and the exterior wall
framing sits on a foundation made of rocks.

I think the reason it has survived is because the "peg" fastening
construction that allows the whole barn to "flex" and give a bit, much
like the wings on a commercial airplane that is riveted rather than
welded. If it (and wings) were stiff, it would be ripped apart in
strong wings.

A truly strong wind against the long side would probably toss it over
but you don't really get Cat3 and 4 up there. The direction of the
wind also makes a huge difference. You can see that, just driving
around my neighborhood If it is hitting the corner I doubt it sees
much at all except the racking force and those pegs will absorb a
whole lot of that. It is the racking that kills screen cages. When I
had mine built to the 140 mph code they added a bunch of rigid cross
members at angles across the roof to stiffen it up. I have had 3 major
hurricanes and it seemed to work.



The other thing is that the screen panels on the pool enclosures down
there are designed to pop out, reducing the "sail" effect caused by the
wind. Screens really don't have as much conductance for wind or even a
breeze for that matter. They are designed to keep the bugs out.

On 9/18/2017 3:05 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 11:50:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 11:39 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:34:59 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:



The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.


Your post caused me to think of the old farmhouse that we used to own
and had my mother living in. I doubt any codes existed when it and the
accompanying barn was built in 1800. All the support beams and rafters
in the barn where pegged together ... no nails or screws. The vertical
beams where the trunks from large cedar trees. We had a bulding
preservation expert who takes care of the buildings in "Plimouth
Plantation" (a local tourist attraction in Plymouth) visit us and he
explained to me that back in those days the barn was built like the
upside-down hull of a wooden ship, mainly due to the early ship building
history of the area.

We had the roof replaced on both the house and barn and when they tore
off the old shingles there was no plywood like you would expect to see.
The roof consisted of wood planks instead, with huge gaps between the
planks in many places. Amazing that it never leaked.

That old house and barn has withstood many a hurricane, blizzards and
storms with nothing close to meeting modern building codes.

If everything was pegged floor to roof peak it might come close to
code, particularly if the uprights were buried deep enough in the
ground.


The interior cedar uprights aren't buried at all and the exterior wall
framing sits on a foundation made of rocks.

I think the reason it has survived is because the "peg" fastening
construction that allows the whole barn to "flex" and give a bit, much
like the wings on a commercial airplane that is riveted rather than
welded. If it (and wings) were stiff, it would be ripped apart in
strong wings.

A truly strong wind against the long side would probably toss it over
but you don't really get Cat3 and 4 up there. The direction of the
wind also makes a huge difference. You can see that, just driving
around my neighborhood If it is hitting the corner I doubt it sees
much at all except the racking force and those pegs will absorb a
whole lot of that. It is the racking that kills screen cages. When I
had mine built to the 140 mph code they added a bunch of rigid cross
members at angles across the roof to stiffen it up. I have had 3 major
hurricanes and it seemed to work.



It's rare but we've had a few Cat 3 hurricanes up here. Mostly they are
Cat 1 or 2 though. The old farmhouse withstood the Great Hurricane of
1938 that although estimated to have been a Cat 3, recorded winds at the
Blue Hills observatory were 121 mph sustained with a 186 mph gust which
remains the highest hurricane produced wind in the USA.

On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 07:19:06 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/18/2017 1:44 AM, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2017 08:32:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/13/2017 8:22 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 9/13/17 7:58 AM, justan wrote:


Governor Rick Scott has been getting high marks for his efforts to
Â* prepare Florida for the disaster.


Does that make up for the huge criminal enterprise Scott ran prior to
being governor? You know, the one that earned a $1.7 billion fine for
Medicare fraud?

Florida is not prepared. If Scott really were concerned about Florida,
he'd be spearheading a statewide effort to stop development in low-lying
coastal areas, and begin a process of condemning and tearing down
susceptible structures in those areas, outlawing mobile homes, and
slowing growth generally. Florida is going to get hit again and again
and again by these large summer and fall hurricanes, and everyone is
going to pace the price for them.

We have a low-lying area a few miles north of here, called Chesapeake
Beach, a quaint little nameplace full of old cottages and a growing
amount of new construction. Nice place, except when Chesapeake Bay
overflows and floods homes and businesses for four blocks up from the
high water line. That area is a foot or two above sea level. Maybe. Why
construction in these places is allowed is beyond my comprehension.

I think the national flood insurance program ought to be dropped and
replaced by a state-by-state funded program for those states that want
it. Let Floridians, Texas, Louisianians, et cetera, pay the price for
their folly of never-ending construction along low-lying waterfronts,
typically built on "reclaimed" land. Alternately, if the states won't
provide flood insurance and mortage companies won't finance homes
without flood insurance, well, that eventually will solve the problem.

Oh, we're close to the Bay, but...we're about 115' above sea level here.
If the Bay floods us, it is the end of the world.


You won't flood but a direct hit of a Cat 4 or 5 hurricane would do some
serious damage to your famous red barn.


The northern building code would not even protect most houses from a
strong Cat 1 or a 2.
When I was there they built to 80 mph but I assume they may have upped
that a little. Even so there are plenty of 30+ year old buildings
built to that code. There was absolutely zero uplift protection beyond
gravity. You were not even required to put nuts on the J bolts in
block headers when you mounted the sill plate for the stick built
parts. There is also no tie beam and no steel in the block. They
didn't even have steel in the footer. The J bolt is just mortared into
one of the block cores.
We have 4 #5 rebars in the tie beam and the top 16" is solid concrete,
that tie beam is doweled with a #5 every 4 feet and at every opening
in a grouted cell and the "hooks", top and bottom get tied to the tie
beam steel and the footer steel.



Massachusetts has three zones for codes regarding wind. Zone One is the
western part of the state and the code is for 70 mph winds. Zone Two
covers the middle portion of the state and has an 80 mph wind code.
Zone Three (where we are) is the eastern part of the state and has 90
mph codes. All are as measured 30 feet above ground.

Code issues we have to deal with that you don't is snow and drift snow
loading on the roof and can be very complicated, factoring type of
roofline, intersecting roof lines, etc. I was just looking at the
equations used to determine the load requirements and got a headache.

90 MPH? We debate about putting the shutters down for that ;-)
As you said, we built for 150 in 2004 and that is 160 now. Just south
or west of me is 170.
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/2012...code%20map.jpg