This came up the other day in a Etchells start.

The line is set square to the wind which is blowing 5-7 knots.

Two boats, A and B are sailing down the line on Stbd.
A and B are overlapped but B's bow is close enough to A's
transom (overlapped by a two or three feet) to limit
A's ability to head up without hitting B.

There are a series of boats, close hauled on stbd, below B
calling for room.

What's B's responsibility in this situation? Does she have to
slow down or bear off to give A room to head up? If the boats
coming up from below reach B before she has been able to
untangle herself from A, is B in the wrong?

J Peters wrote:

This came up the other day in a Etchells start.

The line is set square to the wind which is blowing 5-7 knots.

Two boats, A and B are sailing down the line on Stbd.
A and B are overlapped but B's bow is close enough to A's
transom (overlapped by a two or three feet) to limit
A's ability to head up without hitting B.

There are a series of boats, close hauled on stbd, below B
calling for room.

What's B's responsibility in this situation? Does she have to
slow down or bear off to give A room to head up? If the boats
coming up from below reach B before she has been able to
untangle herself from A, is B in the wrong?




11 ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED
When boats are on the same tack and overlapped, a windward boat shall
keep clear of a leeward boat.

This is limited by

15 ACQUIRING RIGHT OF WAY
When a boat acquires right of way, she shall initially give the other
boat room to keep clear, unless she acquires right of way because of the
other boat’s actions.

and

17.1 If a boat clear astern becomes overlapped within two of her hull
lengths to leeward of a boat on the same tack, she shall not sail above
her proper course while they remain overlapped within that distance,
unless in doing so she promptly sails astern of the other boat. This
rule does not apply if the overlap begins while the windward boat is
required by rule 13 to keep clear.

and that is modified by the definition

Proper Course A course a boat would sail to finish as soon as possible
in the absence of the other boats referred to in the rule using the
term. A boat has no proper course before her starting signal.

Now it's hard for me to pin down the situation exactly from your
description (whether that is my fault or yours I don't know) but it
sounds as if A (to windward) has let themselves get into a really bad
situation. I think if I was B, I'd tap A's transom, shout PROTEST
loudly, and hope everyone else had the sense not to get involved!

(not that I'm an expert - I'm just bored....)
Andy

[This followup was posted to rec.boats.racing and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

In article ,
says...
J Peters wrote:

This came up the other day in a Etchells start.

The line is set square to the wind which is blowing 5-7 knots.

Two boats, A and B are sailing down the line on Stbd.
A and B are overlapped but B's bow is close enough to A's
transom (overlapped by a two or three feet) to limit
A's ability to head up without hitting B.

There are a series of boats, close hauled on stbd, below B
calling for room.

What's B's responsibility in this situation?

Keep clear of leeward boats (RRS 11) and if she changes course give A
room to keep clear (RRS 16.1)

Take a look at Elvstrom Explains pp148 and 149.

Does she have to
slow down or bear off to give A room to head up?

That's two ways of giving A room.

If the boats
coming up from below reach B before she has been able to
untangle herself from A, is B in the wrong?

A classic "who do I hit" situation.


snip Andy's handy citations

Now it's hard for me to pin down the situation exactly from your
description (whether that is my fault or yours I don't know) but it
sounds as if A (to windward) has let themselves get into a really bad
situation. I think if I was B, I'd tap A's transom,

Ahh, the famous "love tap": went out in 1995 I believe.

If you tap A with anything you will probably infringe RRS 14 at least.

If it's your boat you tap A's transom with you will prima facie infringe
RRS 12.

If you "tap" A's quarter, rather than transom, you will probably infringe
RRS 16.1.

shout PROTEST
loudly,

A bit of noisy dialogue with A wouldn't go astray first: up up up, water
for the leeward boats, c'mon get UP, I've got leeward boats coming at us
etc etc.

and hope everyone else had the sense not to get involved!

Why wouldn't the leeward boats get involved: they're the ones seeking
their right of way?

John

John Allan wrote:

[This followup was posted to rec.boats.racing and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

Clever. Given my "posted newsnet address...."

snip
Now it's hard for me to pin down the situation exactly from your
description (whether that is my fault or yours I don't know) but it
sounds as if A (to windward) has let themselves get into a really bad
situation. I think if I was B, I'd tap A's transom,


Ahh, the famous "love tap": went out in 1995 I believe.

If you tap A with anything you will probably infringe RRS 14 at least.
14(b) says I won't get penalised for a "tap". There are people who need
one to be convinced; my suspicion is this may be such a circumstance.
Why do you say it went out?

If it's your boat you tap A's transom with you will prima facie infringe
RRS 12.

If you "tap" A's quarter, rather than transom, you will probably infringe
RRS 16.1.

I should indeed have said "quarter". Given the overlap I think the most
likely impact point is the corner of the transom/quarter. Though I'm
not really familiar with the shape of the Etchells.


shout PROTEST
loudly,

A bit of noisy dialogue with A wouldn't go astray first: up up up, water
for the leeward boats, c'mon get UP, I've got leeward boats coming at us
etc etc.
Agreed there! I took that for granted!


and hope everyone else had the sense not to get involved!


Why wouldn't the leeward boats get involved: they're the ones seeking
their right of way?

Because in a situation where boats collide there is always the chance of
something getting broken (hence 14); they might get tangled up; and at
the least they'll lose a lot of speed. But there are those who seek out
those kind of situations.

Andy.

In article ,
says...
John Allan wrote:

[This followup was posted to rec.boats.racing and a copy was sent to the
cited author.]

Clever. Given my "posted newsnet address...."

That's Gravity trying to be helpful: it was actually saying that a cc
was sent to _me_, as the cited author.

snip
Now it's hard for me to pin down the situation exactly from your
description (whether that is my fault or yours I don't know) but it
sounds as if A (to windward) has let themselves get into a really bad
situation. I think if I was B, I'd tap A's transom,


Ahh, the famous "love tap": went out in 1995 I believe.

If you tap A with anything you will probably infringe RRS 14 at least.
14(b) says I won't get penalised for a "tap".

I disagree. The stem of RRS 14 requires B (or any other boat) to avoid
contact if reasonably possible: B alters course so as to cause contact,
then I don't think one even gets to look at subparagraph (b).

I think that RRS 14 is poorly drafted: the exceptions (a) and (b) refer
to "right of way boat _or_ one entitled to room". In this case B is the
right of way boat, but if changing course (under RRS 16.1) must _give_
room to A.

There are people who need
one to be convinced; my suspicion is this may be such a circumstance.

Can't see that from the scenario. I think basically it's B that is in
trouble here under RRS 15: only way off the hook is if B initally
established the overlap with sufficient room, and has since sailed up to
A, in which case it would be quite difficult to get into the bow to
quarter relationship.

Why do you say it went out?

Since old Rule 32 Avoiding a Collision became RRS 14 Avoiding Contact.

If it's your boat you tap A's transom with you will prima facie infringe
RRS 12.

If you "tap" A's quarter, rather than transom, you will probably infringe
RRS 16.1.

I should indeed have said "quarter". Given the overlap I think the most
likely impact point is the corner of the transom/quarter. Though I'm
not really familiar with the shape of the Etchells.


shout PROTEST
loudly,

A bit of noisy dialogue with A wouldn't go astray first: up up up, water
for the leeward boats, c'mon get UP, I've got leeward boats coming at us
etc etc.
Agreed there! I took that for granted!


and hope everyone else had the sense not to get involved!


Why wouldn't the leeward boats get involved: they're the ones seeking
their right of way?

Because in a situation where boats collide there is always the chance of
something getting broken (hence 14); they might get tangled up; and at
the least they'll lose a lot of speed.

OK, so "involved" in the protest situation versus "involved" in a
collision situation: gotcha.

But there are those who seek out
those kind of situations.

Forcing infringements on the starting line seems a pretty sensible tactic
to me.

John

John Allan wrote:
says...
John Allan wrote:

Now it's hard for me to pin down the situation exactly from your
description (whether that is my fault or yours I don't know) but it
sounds as if A (to windward) has let themselves get into a really bad
situation. I think if I was B, I'd tap A's transom,

Ahh, the famous "love tap": went out in 1995 I believe.

If you tap A with anything you will probably infringe RRS 14 at least.

14(b) says I won't get penalised for a "tap".

I disagree. The stem of RRS 14 requires B (or any other boat) to avoid
contact if reasonably possible: B alters course so as to cause contact,
then I don't think one even gets to look at subparagraph (b).

Andy's right that you won't get penalized under 14 for a tap that does
no damage. But that's not the point - the "love tap" is out because of
rule 16: "16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give
the other boat room to keep clear." My take is that a deliberate tap
would break rule 16. But you're free to take your chances in the
protest room if you're so inclined.

As for the original question it's a little too vague to really tell
what's what.

--
//-Walt
//
//

Any time I have sailed in an Ecthell class, everyone not only knew
what they were doing, but knew how to do it well. Anybody that does
not know the windward boat is obligated to come up does not belong on
a start line.