"Gene Fuller" wrote in message

J. Allan wrote:
"Gene Fuller" wrote in message ,snip

As you know, we get some really high level officials on board for
Lakefest, with national and international race officers and judges.
To a person they told us the closed start/finish line was
unworkable. The RRS do not really accommodate this closure, and
anyone appealing a DSQ would probably win.

Could you elaborate in general terms why the international jurists
have said this is so?

Note that I used the word "unworkable", not illegal, immoral, etc. The
Changes to the SI's are not trivial, as demonstrated in this newsgroup
thread. Getting it right in all conceivable circumstances is not
easy. I cannot find any appeal is the ISAF case book that deals with
this subject, but I will guess that most SI's that attempt to deal
with issue would come up short.

What you seem to be getting at is that, while it may be difficult but
not impossible to draft a binding SI, 'closing' a finish line that is
'inside' the course, is a poor solution to the problem of potential
confusion for the RC.

I'm inclined to agree with you for the following reasons:

* for high level (district/province/national) racing having an
artificial closed line in the middle of the racecourse is obviously
detrimental;

* for club racing, surely there aren't so many boats our there that the
RC can't keep track of them, if they keep their mind on the business
(and delegate etc).

BUT, for club-level racing, I think we've got to recognise that the
hard-working Race officers, who may not be all that numerous to permit
delegation, should be cut a bit of slack to try to balance up making
their own lives a little easier, while not too much creating bad race
courses.


What would be the problem with the following SI based on RRS 29.1

"If, other than when a boat is _finishing_, any part of a boat's
hull, crew or equipment is on the side of the finish line farthest
from the last mark, the boat shall sail completely to the side of
the finish line nearest the last mark before _finishing_. This
modifies RRS 28.1"


I don't think this will work.

I have to agree with you. As drafted it 'catches' boats crossing the
extensions of the finish line, every time they go past. I guess I was
trying to be a bit too clever.

If Jim or anyone else wants an improved version, I'll try again, if
asked.

In many cases, perhaps most cases, the
entire reason for attempting to close the line is to avoid confusion
during a multilap race.

I note that Jim (OP) said that the primary reason was safety, to
separate fast-moving, free sailing finishers from slow beating boats,
which I didn't think was a very good reason, for a finish line
surrounded by navigable water.

In such circumstances your proposed rule would
be violated constantly. Boats have a perfectly legitimate reason to be
on the wrong side of the finishing line in the middle of the race.
Again, this does not demonstrate that it is impossible to set up such
a limitation, but it is not at all trivial.

This could be elaborated along the lines of RRs 30.2/3 to provide
for a percentage penalty or a DSQ (and also allow it to be "switched
on/off" by a flag signal depending on the conditions).


If your club is willing to go along with a valiant attempt to modify
the rules it may work, but perhaps not if you have genuine sea
lawyers involved. I agree that a "request" is not a good idea.

OK, the "request" situation works to keep already-finished boats
clear of the finish line. If the prospect of a "little chat' with a
flag officer about sportsmanship and co-operating with the RC isn't
enough to induce people to co-operate, then I'm sorry for you.
Obviously, district regattas are a little different.


Most sailors believe in sportsmanship, and some even practice it. The
"request" is fine until someone disagrees. I have no issue with
informal agreements and requests, but what happens if there is a
violation, intentional or not? Does the RC ignore it?

RC, if it wishes discusses it with the flag officers who act as they
think necessary.

RC could act under RRS 2/69.1, but if RRS 2/69.1 were to be invoked,
then I would expect it to apply regardless of whether there was a
'request' on the books or not.

Other sailors might ask for redress.

Not unless one of the four circumstances in RRS 62.1 apply, most
probably breach of RRS2/69.1.

Can another boat lodge the protest? Probably,

Yup, any boat can protest about anything: RRS 60.1, but, apart from RRS
69.1, the only way a protest can have an outcome is when a _rule_ is
broken. A "Request" is not a rule.

unless the SI's deal with that possibility.

And the SI would be really standing into danger if they attempted to
apply some 'automagical' penalty for breach of a non-rule Request.

What is the penalty? Does
a 720-rule apply?

720 penalties only generally apply for breaking RRS Part 2 When boats
meet.

If you wanted to impose a 'turns' or a percentage penalty for breach of
other than a When boats meet rule inserted in the SI:

* firstly, as you have prevously observed, you have to get around RRS
63.1, at least by referencing and modifying RRS 63.1; and

* secondly exactly describing how the penalty shall operate, for
example as is done in RRS 32.1.

But, as I have agreed with you above, you can't expect seriously
competitive sailors to suffer an artificial 'closed' line in the middle
of their race-course gladly.

snip

John