|
Yo Tim...FWIW
On 5/1/2017 3:52 PM, Tim wrote:
1:27 PMMr. Luddite - show quoted text - Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? ..... Richard, I believe the KN is made for more extreme measures like dirt racing. Possibly giving better filtration but also more air flow while half clogged compared to OE when new... Maybe. But something bothers me about that logic also. The K&N filters are treated with oil and thus can be cleaned and re-used. That's about the only advantage I can see and it would make sense in dirt racing. You wouldn't have to buy a new filter every race. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On 5/1/17 4:46 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 5/1/2017 3:52 PM, Tim wrote: 1:27 PMMr. Luddite - show quoted text - Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? ..... Richard, I believe the KN is made for more extreme measures like dirt racing. Possibly giving better filtration but also more air flow while half clogged compared to OE when new... Maybe. But something bothers me about that logic also. The K&N filters are treated with oil and thus can be cleaned and re-used. That's about the only advantage I can see and it would make sense in dirt racing. You wouldn't have to buy a new filter every race. If you are dirt racing in a truck, the $25 an OEM air filter would cost would be among the most minor expenses, and you wouldn't have to mess with cleaning and oiling it. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On Mon, 1 May 2017 16:21:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 5/1/2017 3:17 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 14:27:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 5/1/2017 2:15 PM, Tim wrote: 12:45 PMPoco Deplorevole - show quoted text - The pipes, jetting and K&N air filters made a hell of a difference in the way mine ran. ... Oh yes I'm sure it would. I'm limited in mine to what I can do. Seeing mine is electronic fuel injected, anout the only things available is through Harpers, there's some "performance" mufflers. And also available is a $300.00 computer box, and that's about it.. http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 https://store.58cycle.com/product_p/...FRYbgQodK0oD8g Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? I don't know if the K&Ns pass more air or not. With the three changes I made to my bike it accelerated much faster. I do know that I can dismount, clean, oil, and replace the K&Ns in about a half hour. The stock air filter would take at least an hour just to get to it...buried under the gas tank between frame members with tubes going everywhere. Here's what the stock filter looks like: https://www.harpermoto.com/images/pl...air-filter.jpg Here's a pic showing how it's mounted, but you have to look very closely. It's under the top center frame member, between the two side frame members, snuggled down between the two cylinders. http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...3686/GW448H336 Here's the K&N installation: http://www.spedizione.nl/wp-content/...-3-2015-41.jpg I never tried a K&N on any of my motorcycles so I have no personal experience. However, I was curious and ran across this explanation in a motorcycle forum. Guy seems to know what he's talking about: "Several years ago a bunch of BMW motorcycle enthusiasts decided to test the claims. They dyno tested several bikes with factory air filters, K&N filters, and NO filter, and made several runs. There was exactly zero measurable power increase. The claims tend to work like this: -Factory air filter produces 1.5" H2O pressure drop. -Wonder filter produces only 0.5" H2O pressure drop. Wonder filter is 300% better!!! This ignores the fact that atmospheric pressure is about 384"H2O. Therefore a 1.5" pressure drop represents, at most, a 0.3% power loss. If the improvement were directly proportional to pressure, then the wonder filter might produce a 0.2% power increase, which is completely buried in the noise of temperature variations and barometric pressure changes. But this is not the case. Mass flow varies as the square root of pressure drop, so that difference in pressure allows only 0.1% more mass flow. The actual difference is even less than that though. Because the filter is only part of the total pressure drop between open atmosphere and the inside of the cylinders. Most of the drop is still going to be getting past the intake valve(s). Tuned intakes can mitigate this over narrow rpm ranges, and this is of course where peak torque is measured, so really sensitive measurements may pick up an improvement in peak torque, but anywere else the pressure loss across the filter is meaningless. My use of K&Ns on the Guzzi is purely convenience...and they're cheap. The two on their now have lasted over 25 years. Can't bitch about that. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On Mon, 1 May 2017 16:46:57 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 5/1/2017 3:52 PM, Tim wrote: 1:27 PMMr. Luddite - show quoted text - Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? ..... Richard, I believe the KN is made for more extreme measures like dirt racing. Possibly giving better filtration but also more air flow while half clogged compared to OE when new... Maybe. But something bothers me about that logic also. The K&N filters are treated with oil and thus can be cleaned and re-used. That's about the only advantage I can see and it would make sense in dirt racing. You wouldn't have to buy a new filter every race. That's the big advantage, along with accessibility, on or off the track with Moto Guzzis. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
3:47 PMMr. Luddite
On 5/1/2017 3:52 PM, Tim wrote: 1:27 PMMr. Luddite - show quoted text - Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? ..... Richard, I believe the KN is made for more extreme measures like dirt racing. Possibly giving better filtration but also more air flow while half clogged compared to OE when new... Maybe. But something bothers me about that logic also. The K&N filters are treated with oil and thus can be cleaned and re-used. That's about the only advantage I can see and it would make sense in dirt racing. You wouldn't have to buy a new filter every race. ..... If memory serves correctly, I'd read on a Brit bike forum and someone was discouraging the use of the really small KNs because of their lack of filtration capabilities. But one advantage was they sure looked way cool those Triumphs with those cute little button filters on them...😋 |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On 5/1/2017 5:01 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Mon, 1 May 2017 16:21:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 5/1/2017 3:17 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 14:27:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 5/1/2017 2:15 PM, Tim wrote: 12:45 PMPoco Deplorevole - show quoted text - The pipes, jetting and K&N air filters made a hell of a difference in the way mine ran. ... Oh yes I'm sure it would. I'm limited in mine to what I can do. Seeing mine is electronic fuel injected, anout the only things available is through Harpers, there's some "performance" mufflers. And also available is a $300.00 computer box, and that's about it.. http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 https://store.58cycle.com/product_p/...FRYbgQodK0oD8g Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? I don't know if the K&Ns pass more air or not. With the three changes I made to my bike it accelerated much faster. I do know that I can dismount, clean, oil, and replace the K&Ns in about a half hour. The stock air filter would take at least an hour just to get to it...buried under the gas tank between frame members with tubes going everywhere. Here's what the stock filter looks like: https://www.harpermoto.com/images/pl...air-filter.jpg Here's a pic showing how it's mounted, but you have to look very closely. It's under the top center frame member, between the two side frame members, snuggled down between the two cylinders. http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...3686/GW448H336 Here's the K&N installation: http://www.spedizione.nl/wp-content/...-3-2015-41.jpg I never tried a K&N on any of my motorcycles so I have no personal experience. However, I was curious and ran across this explanation in a motorcycle forum. Guy seems to know what he's talking about: "Several years ago a bunch of BMW motorcycle enthusiasts decided to test the claims. They dyno tested several bikes with factory air filters, K&N filters, and NO filter, and made several runs. There was exactly zero measurable power increase. The claims tend to work like this: -Factory air filter produces 1.5" H2O pressure drop. -Wonder filter produces only 0.5" H2O pressure drop. Wonder filter is 300% better!!! This ignores the fact that atmospheric pressure is about 384"H2O. Therefore a 1.5" pressure drop represents, at most, a 0.3% power loss. If the improvement were directly proportional to pressure, then the wonder filter might produce a 0.2% power increase, which is completely buried in the noise of temperature variations and barometric pressure changes. But this is not the case. Mass flow varies as the square root of pressure drop, so that difference in pressure allows only 0.1% more mass flow. The actual difference is even less than that though. Because the filter is only part of the total pressure drop between open atmosphere and the inside of the cylinders. Most of the drop is still going to be getting past the intake valve(s). Tuned intakes can mitigate this over narrow rpm ranges, and this is of course where peak torque is measured, so really sensitive measurements may pick up an improvement in peak torque, but anywere else the pressure loss across the filter is meaningless. My use of K&Ns on the Guzzi is purely convenience...and they're cheap. The two on their now have lasted over 25 years. Can't bitch about that. Understand. My problem are the claims that K&N air filters increase horsepower and performance. By themselves, I don't buy it. If you change your 2 barrel Carter for a 4 barrel Holley and add a K&N ... sure. When I was 16 or 17 my first car was a '62 Ford Galaxie. It was fun to take the air cleaner assembly completely off and floor it to hear the roar of the air entering the intake through carb. Car didn't go any faster. It just made more noise. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
4:22 PMMr. Luddite
- show quoted text - Understand. My problem are the claims that K&N air filters increase horsepower and performance. By themselves, I don't buy it. If you change your 2 barrel Carter for a 4 barrel Holley and add a K&N ... sure. When I was 16 or 17 my first car was a '62 Ford Galaxie. It was fun to take the air cleaner assembly completely off and floor it to hear the roar of the air entering the intake through carb. Car didn't go any faster. It just made more noise. ..... Yup. A buddy did that to his dads 70 olds with a 45, only all he did was take the lid off the filter canister.. Problem was he floored it and the engine coughed and died. He knew the old man was going to kill him for blowing it up. But when we raised the hood we were relieved at what actually happened. When he nailed it, that 700cfm "Rotten-Chester quadra-junk" sucked so hard it grabbed a generous amount of the fiber noise insulation attached to the underside of thehood and tried to eat it. It looked like the carb was full of black cotton candy. With a flashlight and needle nose pliers we dug everything out at least the best we could, put it all together , and luckily it started and ran fine.. he parked it. And not a word was said. Kid never did that again... |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On Mon, 1 May 2017 14:37:26 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote: 4:22 PMMr. Luddite - show quoted text - Understand. My problem are the claims that K&N air filters increase horsepower and performance. By themselves, I don't buy it. If you change your 2 barrel Carter for a 4 barrel Holley and add a K&N ... sure. When I was 16 or 17 my first car was a '62 Ford Galaxie. It was fun to take the air cleaner assembly completely off and floor it to hear the roar of the air entering the intake through carb. Car didn't go any faster. It just made more noise. .... Yup. A buddy did that to his dads 70 olds with a 45, only all he did was take the lid off the filter canister.. Problem was he floored it and the engine coughed and died. He knew the old man was going to kill him for blowing it up. But when we raised the hood we were relieved at what actually happened. When he nailed it, that 700cfm "Rotten-Chester quadra-junk" sucked so hard it grabbed a generous amount of the fiber noise insulation attached to the underside of thehood and tried to eat it. It looked like the carb was full of black cotton candy. With a flashlight and needle nose pliers we dug everything out at least the best we could, put it all together , and luckily it started and ran fine. he parked it. And not a word was said. Kid never did that again... Once paper filters were on cars, the trick was you cut the sides and "horn" off of the top cover and you got most of the sound, better breathing and it still was filtered/flame arrested. My old 53 Merc 312 had that charming Holly carb with the bowl centered over the venturies. A carb fire would just keep going and going so the flame arresting part was very important. |
Yo Tim...FWIW
On Mon, 1 May 2017 17:22:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 5/1/2017 5:01 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 16:21:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 5/1/2017 3:17 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 1 May 2017 14:27:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 5/1/2017 2:15 PM, Tim wrote: 12:45 PMPoco Deplorevole - show quoted text - The pipes, jetting and K&N air filters made a hell of a difference in the way mine ran. ... Oh yes I'm sure it would. I'm limited in mine to what I can do. Seeing mine is electronic fuel injected, anout the only things available is through Harpers, there's some "performance" mufflers. And also available is a $300.00 computer box, and that's about it.. http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 http://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detai...zi/jackal-1100 https://store.58cycle.com/product_p/...FRYbgQodK0oD8g Do you really think K&N air filters make a difference? I've tried them on two different vehicles, one with a carb and one that was fuel injected. Other than being a bit louder under full throttle, I didn't see any performance difference. Isn't it true that a stock air filter is designed to pass the maximum amount of air that the intake can handle? If so, of what benefit is a K&N? They may be capable of more air passing through them under test conditions but if the intake only demands what a stock filter can handle, what's the point? I don't know if the K&Ns pass more air or not. With the three changes I made to my bike it accelerated much faster. I do know that I can dismount, clean, oil, and replace the K&Ns in about a half hour. The stock air filter would take at least an hour just to get to it...buried under the gas tank between frame members with tubes going everywhere. Here's what the stock filter looks like: https://www.harpermoto.com/images/pl...air-filter.jpg Here's a pic showing how it's mounted, but you have to look very closely. It's under the top center frame member, between the two side frame members, snuggled down between the two cylinders. http://image.wikifoundry.com/image/1...3686/GW448H336 Here's the K&N installation: http://www.spedizione.nl/wp-content/...-3-2015-41.jpg I never tried a K&N on any of my motorcycles so I have no personal experience. However, I was curious and ran across this explanation in a motorcycle forum. Guy seems to know what he's talking about: "Several years ago a bunch of BMW motorcycle enthusiasts decided to test the claims. They dyno tested several bikes with factory air filters, K&N filters, and NO filter, and made several runs. There was exactly zero measurable power increase. The claims tend to work like this: -Factory air filter produces 1.5" H2O pressure drop. -Wonder filter produces only 0.5" H2O pressure drop. Wonder filter is 300% better!!! This ignores the fact that atmospheric pressure is about 384"H2O. Therefore a 1.5" pressure drop represents, at most, a 0.3% power loss. If the improvement were directly proportional to pressure, then the wonder filter might produce a 0.2% power increase, which is completely buried in the noise of temperature variations and barometric pressure changes. But this is not the case. Mass flow varies as the square root of pressure drop, so that difference in pressure allows only 0.1% more mass flow. The actual difference is even less than that though. Because the filter is only part of the total pressure drop between open atmosphere and the inside of the cylinders. Most of the drop is still going to be getting past the intake valve(s). Tuned intakes can mitigate this over narrow rpm ranges, and this is of course where peak torque is measured, so really sensitive measurements may pick up an improvement in peak torque, but anywere else the pressure loss across the filter is meaningless. My use of K&Ns on the Guzzi is purely convenience...and they're cheap. The two on their now have lasted over 25 years. Can't bitch about that. Understand. My problem are the claims that K&N air filters increase horsepower and performance. By themselves, I don't buy it. If you change your 2 barrel Carter for a 4 barrel Holley and add a K&N ... sure. When I was 16 or 17 my first car was a '62 Ford Galaxie. It was fun to take the air cleaner assembly completely off and floor it to hear the roar of the air entering the intake through carb. Car didn't go any faster. It just made more noise. Yup. I've never read anything showing K&N performance increases except on K&N pubs or packages. On my bike I think the jetting and open exhaust made the performance increase. And, of course, it helps to have an HIV Positive physique, as Krause would say. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:18 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com