|
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:01:26 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:38:03 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:00:29 -0700 (PDT), Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:24:06 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:20:57 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I think the solution lies with the muslim world. We're not getting the kind of help or leadership from any of the Muslim countries that we need. === You're absolutely right about that. Pakistan is arguably one of the more advanced Muslim countries and they're still stoning people to death for blasphemy. So what? Why do we care what they do in their own country? There are plenty of western europeans who think we are barbarians too. I can't believe you said that. Why? For the same reason you'd get ****ed if the guy across the street from you was kicking the **** out of his dog! If it was the guy on my street I would be upset but I am not going to Korea and tell a guy he can't eat his dog. Different culture, different rules. Personally I don't have a problem with a Korean eating dog meat. I think it's possible to kill a dog 'humanely', just as it is to kill a pig or steer. It's 'inhumane' treatment I'm talking about. Raping and genitally mutilating 12- year-old girls is inhumane, especially when they've been kidnapped by the hundreds in the first place. It is not our place to tell people half way around the world how they treat their dogs or their people when that has been their culture since the fall of Rome. I guess we'll just disagree. The use of chemical weapons by anyone should be stopped. If that is your goal, we are going to be at war in 20 countries. The 3d world sucks and we need to get over it. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:06:49 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 5:42 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 14:10:48 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: I found Greg's comment a bit weird also. I don't think he really believes it and would be very disappointed if he did. He's a better man than that despite his Libertarian ways. :-) It has nothing to do with my virtue, it is my understanding that other cultures have different rules. As I said, Europe thinks we are pretty barbaric too. How many homicides did we have last year? How many executions? How many people are incarcerated? If we were talking about guns John, Jim, and the rest would be telling those nancy boys in Europe to mind their own business. Sorry Greg but as a member of the human species, I can't accept your rational. I am sorry Don Quixote, we will never right all of the world's wrongs. These savages have lived like that for a couple thousand years and we are not going to change that by bombing them. It is just the 24 hour news cycle that even lets us know about it but it is not just going on in Syria. That is just where the cameras are right now. The **** that goes down in the jungles of South America, Africa and most of Asia would shock you too. Civilization as we know it really only exists among about a third of the world population. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:45:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:31 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:58:18 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: while the MOAP wipes out everything on the surface within a mile radius Doesn't seem like a cave buster to me and that is what the CNN military guy said. As for "sealing the entrance" even a silly rabbit knows you should have two holes into a burrow. The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:00:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:46 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:36:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: It was pointed out by a military guy today on the talking head shows that if we were really targeting caves, we should have used the MOP, not the MOAB. The MOAB did the job according to those inspecting the area. Hmmm the DoD sources are saying the DoD did a good job, whodathunkit. I am sure there is a big crater and anyone outside the cave was killed but we could have done that with a stick of cluster bombs. That just wouldn't have been news when they needed some news. We are beating this subject to death, but Mrs.E is visiting my son and his family in South Carolina and I am somewhat bored, so what the hell: Firstly, the sources who initially reported the results were Afghan officials who were on site and inspecting up close and personal. I suppose you'll just say they are in bed with the DoD, but I thought I'd point that out. My understanding of how the MOAB works is that it detonates about 6 feet above the ground. It's primary effect is to generate a massive shock wave that travels into the caves and down the tunnels, destroying them and anything in them. The shock wave is what does all the damage. Almost all the "experts" interviewed on media seem to be in agreement with this, as are written sources on how the MOAB works. A secondary effect, although I am not sure about it, is that the size of the explosion burns up all the available oxygen, supposedly killing anything alive. Not sure I totally buy that but I am just a layman with an opinion. Until someone answers the question, how many were outside walking around minding their sheep or farming and how many were actually killed inside the caves we do not know exactly how effective it was. If they actually collapsed caves, how did they get the body count and how many came out the other side coughing dust? When I read the MOAB stories it says that was for surface targets and the MOP was for underground targets. I suppose the problem is we have no clue what is underground. It turned out all of those pictures of Bin Laden's suspected underground compounds were simply Mechanix Illustrated style fantasy. Oh and he was a whole country away anyhow. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:05:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:53 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:42:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:45 PM, wrote: That is even sillier in this context than the one up thread a bit. If we were just interested in humanitarian causes, we would be bombing Afghanistan with food, books and satellite connected PCs. That would be a winning strategy in N Korea too. The vast majority of the NK population wouldn't know what the PC's were, let alone know how to use them. I guess you have not seen the stories about the people who are spreading cheap PCs among 3d world people. The kids pick it up and start using it right away with minimal training. http://one.laptop.org/ In North Korea? Most places there don't even have electricity to charge the batteries. Check out the night time satellite images. South Korea is lit up like a Christmas tree, right up to the border where it suddenly goes pitch black everywhere. That machine can be charged a couple different ways including a hand crank, solar or a various combination of electrical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO It is really a pretty cool machine.For $200 you can get 2, one for you and one for a kid in Fumbuck. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:30:39 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: The politicians (I cited Truman and LBJ) didn't *allow* the military to win the wars although they well could have. Not really. We would have ended up at war with the Soviets before we took Hanoi and we were already at war with China when we high tailed it back to the 38th parallel and called for a cease fire. Bush 41 and Bush 43 are exceptions. The wars they got us involved in were easily and quickly won. The political problems that remained is what has caused all the problems. HW won when he pushed Saddam back into Iraq. He should have picked up his marbles and gone home right then. Everything after that was just a series of bad decisions and battles with no actual win available to them. GW certainly defeated Saddam's army but they did not conquer the country and install a real government like we did in 1945. All we did was unleash the crazies that Saddam had been containing. I am not sure you can build a real nation where none existed before. I see the same thing happening in Syria and so does Putin. He has already said, if we can come up with a plan that replaces Assad with someone better they would get on board. Nobody wants another Iran, Iraq or Libya. It's is hard to find a case where we deposed a dictator in the last 50 years and it actually worked out well for the US. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:39:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 7:26 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:54:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Heh. And they call me Luddite. :-) I can give you some first hand, much more contemporary examples of what it's like to be under contract directly with the DoD or as a second tier sub to major DoD contractors, but it would take a book and bore the hell out of anyone. Let's just say that they are not as free spending as you might like to believe and there are reasons for it. I am not saying you are wrong Greg. It's just that things have changed over the years. Nobody ever said they treat small contractors fairly. Too bad you weren't Raytheon but that still does not excuse the inefficiency of the whole appropriation, development, deployment and scrapping process. How many times did they change the specs on you and expect you to eat the cost? Did you? I had many contracts with Raytheon's DoD division and with other major DoD contractors. Also had a few contracts directly with the DoD. No, I wasn't expected to "eat" a change in spec that affected our work but there really were not that many of them. I did a pretty good job at responding precisely to their RFQ's, because our proposal usually became part of the contract. Any technical issues or requirements that might be subject to "interpretation" were ironed out before the contract was signed. I had learned the hard way in another company. The company lawyer I had told me I would have made a good corporate contracts lawyer. No thanks. You were either very good or very lucky. I had lots of customers with DoD contracts (My office was called "Washington Defense" until they changed it to GEM Government, Education and Medical). They were always complaining about trying to hit moving targets. |
MOAB story
On 4/16/2017 10:49 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:39:10 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 7:26 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:54:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: Heh. And they call me Luddite. :-) I can give you some first hand, much more contemporary examples of what it's like to be under contract directly with the DoD or as a second tier sub to major DoD contractors, but it would take a book and bore the hell out of anyone. Let's just say that they are not as free spending as you might like to believe and there are reasons for it. I am not saying you are wrong Greg. It's just that things have changed over the years. Nobody ever said they treat small contractors fairly. Too bad you weren't Raytheon but that still does not excuse the inefficiency of the whole appropriation, development, deployment and scrapping process. How many times did they change the specs on you and expect you to eat the cost? Did you? I had many contracts with Raytheon's DoD division and with other major DoD contractors. Also had a few contracts directly with the DoD. No, I wasn't expected to "eat" a change in spec that affected our work but there really were not that many of them. I did a pretty good job at responding precisely to their RFQ's, because our proposal usually became part of the contract. Any technical issues or requirements that might be subject to "interpretation" were ironed out before the contract was signed. I had learned the hard way in another company. The company lawyer I had told me I would have made a good corporate contracts lawyer. No thanks. You were either very good or very lucky. I had lots of customers with DoD contracts (My office was called "Washington Defense" until they changed it to GEM Government, Education and Medical). They were always complaining about trying to hit moving targets. I learned to write very detailed technical proposals that not only indicated acceptance of the RFQ stated requirements but also described in detail *how* we would meet them. Usually that sort of detail wasn't spelled out until the critical design review after you were under contract. Putting that effort into the proposal avoided "interpretation" disputes later. I also earned a reputation for stating what RFQ requirements I felt we could *not* meet and why. That approach won us a $750K contract when the company was only 8 months old and nobody had ever heard of it. The program manager called me after getting our proposal and told me they didn't think the requirement could be met either and we were the only respondent who took exception to it. Everyone else had simply accepted it. I didn't take exception due to arrogance. I knew that accepting a questionable contractual requirement could put me out of business. :-) |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:28:29 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:51:26 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:34:45 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:44:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is not oil. Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism. There are people being ****ed over all over the planet and we really do not care in most places. That's true. But that's not to say we shouldn't do what we can where we can. I'd love to see us doing more to punish the assholes in Africa doing their damndest to rape, plunder and pillage everything they can, including girls even younger than those Harry likes. Perhaps we take on those who may present a bigger threat. Of course, if you believe there are no threats out there, then that is a meaningless point also. How many kids would you send to Somalia? Congo? Yeah, I thought so. Depends on the situation and the terrain. But, the fact that the suffering are black doesn't take away from the humanity issue. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:06:18 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:45:18 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:31 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:58:18 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: while the MOAP wipes out everything on the surface within a mile radius Doesn't seem like a cave buster to me and that is what the CNN military guy said. As for "sealing the entrance" even a silly rabbit knows you should have two holes into a burrow. The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. We simply do our best with what we've got. |
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:41:31 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:09:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:34 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:44:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is not oil. Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism. There are people being ****ed over all over the planet and we really do not care in most places. In terms of percent of GNP, Sweden leads the list for foreign humanitarian aid by government at just under 1 percent of GNP. In terms of GNI (whatever that is) Turkey actually is on top. The USA government direct humanitarian aid by GNP is something like number 20 on the list. However, when you add in private and corporate donations, the USA dwarfs all other nations in total humanitarian aid at about 6.4 billion. Surprisingly, Turkey is next at $3.2 billion, then the UK at $2.8 billion. (2015 numbers) I guess it depends on who you say doesn't care. If the DoD budget is actually Humanitarian aid as has been posed here, we win ... by a long shot. Who 'posed' that? It may have been suggested that a small portion of the DoD budget was used for humanitarian aid, but your statement above is false. |
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On 4/17/2017 8:37 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:31:51 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:58:18 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: while the MOAP wipes out everything on the surface within a mile radius Doesn't seem like a cave buster to me and that is what the CNN military guy said. As for "sealing the entrance" even a silly rabbit knows you should have two holes into a burrow. Your cutting left out the context. If we killed a hundred or so, something must have worked. The world is made up of optimists and pessimists. The latter focus on all the reasons something can't work or can't be done. The optimists focus on what *can* work and what *can* be done. Pessimists sit idly by, watching the optimists succeed, and then complain about the risks that were taken and how they would never have done it that way. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:25:01 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:05:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:53 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:42:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:45 PM, wrote: That is even sillier in this context than the one up thread a bit. If we were just interested in humanitarian causes, we would be bombing Afghanistan with food, books and satellite connected PCs. That would be a winning strategy in N Korea too. The vast majority of the NK population wouldn't know what the PC's were, let alone know how to use them. I guess you have not seen the stories about the people who are spreading cheap PCs among 3d world people. The kids pick it up and start using it right away with minimal training. http://one.laptop.org/ In North Korea? Most places there don't even have electricity to charge the batteries. Check out the night time satellite images. South Korea is lit up like a Christmas tree, right up to the border where it suddenly goes pitch black everywhere. That machine can be charged a couple different ways including a hand crank, solar or a various combination of electrical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO It is really a pretty cool machine.For $200 you can get 2, one for you and one for a kid in Fumbuck. If these PCs would enable North Koreans to see how the rest of the world lives, then I am sure the penalty for owning one would be very severe. |
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:23:09 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:48:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: I also heard the actual production cost of the MOABs was $170k or so and you get to $16 million by dividing the $340m program cost by the 21 bombs they built. If you recycled the guidance package and just demilled the barrel bomb it guides, no doubt that would still be cheaper but I bet there is a better guidance package out there now too so it is likely to be chucked. This is DoD, a billion here, a billion there and pretty soon we are talking about real money. (Proxmire) Do you really think they are worried about a couple hundred grand? How many multi billion dollar weapons systems have we built that were designed, built, deployed and then scrapped without ever firing a shot in anger? (and I don't just mean ballistic missiles and nukes) Read the link I posted about MOAB costs. Washington Post, Times, and even Harry got it all wrong. This is what I have gotten out of several articles on the bomb although the numbers wiggle around a few percent but not enough to matter. The actual production cost of the MOABs was $170k or so and you get to $16 million by dividing the $340m program cost by the 21 bombs they built. It all depends on if you want the incremental cost of one more bomb at $170k or if you take the total program cost and divide it by the number built to date. I paid for the total program and so did you. It is like saying it only costs a dime to make a pill and ignoring the development, testing, regulatory, insurance and distribution cost. Oh, bull****. I posted the facts about the MOAB cost, but apparently you decided to overlook them. He https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb...-cost-calamity |
MOAB story
On 4/17/2017 8:47 AM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:25:01 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:05:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:53 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:42:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:45 PM, wrote: That is even sillier in this context than the one up thread a bit. If we were just interested in humanitarian causes, we would be bombing Afghanistan with food, books and satellite connected PCs. That would be a winning strategy in N Korea too. The vast majority of the NK population wouldn't know what the PC's were, let alone know how to use them. I guess you have not seen the stories about the people who are spreading cheap PCs among 3d world people. The kids pick it up and start using it right away with minimal training. http://one.laptop.org/ In North Korea? Most places there don't even have electricity to charge the batteries. Check out the night time satellite images. South Korea is lit up like a Christmas tree, right up to the border where it suddenly goes pitch black everywhere. That machine can be charged a couple different ways including a hand crank, solar or a various combination of electrical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO It is really a pretty cool machine.For $200 you can get 2, one for you and one for a kid in Fumbuck. If these PCs would enable North Koreans to see how the rest of the world lives, then I am sure the penalty for owning one would be very severe. And if they could connect to NK's Internet, this is what they'd see: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-37426725 |
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 21:56:55 -0400, wrote:
On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:01:26 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:38:03 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:00:29 -0700 (PDT), Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:24:06 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:20:57 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I think the solution lies with the muslim world. We're not getting the kind of help or leadership from any of the Muslim countries that we need. === You're absolutely right about that. Pakistan is arguably one of the more advanced Muslim countries and they're still stoning people to death for blasphemy. So what? Why do we care what they do in their own country? There are plenty of western europeans who think we are barbarians too. I can't believe you said that. Why? For the same reason you'd get ****ed if the guy across the street from you was kicking the **** out of his dog! If it was the guy on my street I would be upset but I am not going to Korea and tell a guy he can't eat his dog. Different culture, different rules. Personally I don't have a problem with a Korean eating dog meat. I think it's possible to kill a dog 'humanely', just as it is to kill a pig or steer. It's 'inhumane' treatment I'm talking about. Raping and genitally mutilating 12- year-old girls is inhumane, especially when they've been kidnapped by the hundreds in the first place. It is not our place to tell people half way around the world how they treat their dogs or their people when that has been their culture since the fall of Rome. I guess we'll just disagree. The use of chemical weapons by anyone should be stopped. If that is your goal, we are going to be at war in 20 countries. The 3d world sucks and we need to get over it. There are 20 countries using chemical weapons now? Remember, I don't include defoliants and incendiaries as chemical weapons. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 07:26:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 4/16/2017 10:49 PM, wrote: You were either very good or very lucky. I had lots of customers with DoD contracts (My office was called "Washington Defense" until they changed it to GEM Government, Education and Medical). They were always complaining about trying to hit moving targets. I learned to write very detailed technical proposals that not only indicated acceptance of the RFQ stated requirements but also described in detail *how* we would meet them. Usually that sort of detail wasn't spelled out until the critical design review after you were under contract. Putting that effort into the proposal avoided "interpretation" disputes later. I also earned a reputation for stating what RFQ requirements I felt we could *not* meet and why. That approach won us a $750K contract when the company was only 8 months old and nobody had ever heard of it. The program manager called me after getting our proposal and told me they didn't think the requirement could be met either and we were the only respondent who took exception to it. Everyone else had simply accepted it. I didn't take exception due to arrogance. I knew that accepting a questionable contractual requirement could put me out of business. :-) I have always believed you were smarter than the average bear ;-) |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:35:07 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:28:29 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:51:26 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 16:34:45 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:44:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is not oil. Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism. There are people being ****ed over all over the planet and we really do not care in most places. That's true. But that's not to say we shouldn't do what we can where we can. I'd love to see us doing more to punish the assholes in Africa doing their damndest to rape, plunder and pillage everything they can, including girls even younger than those Harry likes. Perhaps we take on those who may present a bigger threat. Of course, if you believe there are no threats out there, then that is a meaningless point also. How many kids would you send to Somalia? Congo? Yeah, I thought so. Depends on the situation and the terrain. But, the fact that the suffering are black doesn't take away from the humanity issue. Maybe it is just the geography but it is true we have ignored human rights violations in most of the world. Carter paid lip service to Angola and Clinton made one ill fated raid in Somalia. Other than that it is just a few Hollywood types complaining from their Malibu pool decks with the occasional well armed safari into the bush for a photo op. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:36:20 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:06:18 -0400, wrote: The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. We simply do our best with what we've got. Not really or we would have used a MOP |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:39:28 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:41:31 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:09:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:34 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:44:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is not oil. Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism. There are people being ****ed over all over the planet and we really do not care in most places. In terms of percent of GNP, Sweden leads the list for foreign humanitarian aid by government at just under 1 percent of GNP. In terms of GNI (whatever that is) Turkey actually is on top. The USA government direct humanitarian aid by GNP is something like number 20 on the list. However, when you add in private and corporate donations, the USA dwarfs all other nations in total humanitarian aid at about 6.4 billion. Surprisingly, Turkey is next at $3.2 billion, then the UK at $2.8 billion. (2015 numbers) I guess it depends on who you say doesn't care. If the DoD budget is actually Humanitarian aid as has been posed here, we win ... by a long shot. Who 'posed' that? It may have been suggested that a small portion of the DoD budget was used for humanitarian aid, but your statement above is false. You are the one who says the war in Syria and Afghanistan is for humanitarian purposes. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:44:16 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: ISIS influence could be blunted with some education and Kim would not last a week if his people actually understood the lie. Educate who? How? While you may be right about Kim's people, Kim has a huge Army to ensure his people do as he says. As long as he keeps his generals happy, he's got the population under his thumb. These regimes only survive because they can perpetuate the lie. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:47:53 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:25:01 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:05:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:53 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:42:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:45 PM, wrote: That is even sillier in this context than the one up thread a bit. If we were just interested in humanitarian causes, we would be bombing Afghanistan with food, books and satellite connected PCs. That would be a winning strategy in N Korea too. The vast majority of the NK population wouldn't know what the PC's were, let alone know how to use them. I guess you have not seen the stories about the people who are spreading cheap PCs among 3d world people. The kids pick it up and start using it right away with minimal training. http://one.laptop.org/ In North Korea? Most places there don't even have electricity to charge the batteries. Check out the night time satellite images. South Korea is lit up like a Christmas tree, right up to the border where it suddenly goes pitch black everywhere. That machine can be charged a couple different ways including a hand crank, solar or a various combination of electrical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO It is really a pretty cool machine.For $200 you can get 2, one for you and one for a kid in Fumbuck. If these PCs would enable North Koreans to see how the rest of the world lives, then I am sure the penalty for owning one would be very severe. That strategy works until it doesn't. As the Soviets found out, change can happen in the blink of an eye. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:59:21 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:30:04 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:55:49 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: I would not be at all against taking action in Africa similar to what we are doing in Syria. And, in some cases I would be agreeable to inserting troops - SEALs or whatever. Leaving the problems to the UN 'peacekeepers' seems to be causing even more trouble. You want another Somalia huh? We got our ass handed to us there and we had no interest in going back. There is no quick SEAL strike that will do anything. It will only encourage a larger conflict and pretty soon you will be in another un winnable quagmire. Hopefully we could do a better job the second time around. Who was the last country to successfully invade and occupy sub saharan Africa? The colonial Europeans were able to carve out plantations and a few ports but they never tried to alter the customs of the people out in the bush. They still had some battles with the natives that generally ended in a stalemate. Most of the real wars were Europeans fighting each other over their colonies. (Boers, Brits, French and the combatants in WWI-II). The history in South America and South Asia is even worse. Places like Afghanistan gobble up invaders and **** them out. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 09:00:48 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 21:56:55 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:01:26 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:38:03 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 11:00:29 -0700 (PDT), Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 1:03:17 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 10:24:06 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 09:20:57 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote: I think the solution lies with the muslim world. We're not getting the kind of help or leadership from any of the Muslim countries that we need. === You're absolutely right about that. Pakistan is arguably one of the more advanced Muslim countries and they're still stoning people to death for blasphemy. So what? Why do we care what they do in their own country? There are plenty of western europeans who think we are barbarians too. I can't believe you said that. Why? For the same reason you'd get ****ed if the guy across the street from you was kicking the **** out of his dog! If it was the guy on my street I would be upset but I am not going to Korea and tell a guy he can't eat his dog. Different culture, different rules. Personally I don't have a problem with a Korean eating dog meat. I think it's possible to kill a dog 'humanely', just as it is to kill a pig or steer. It's 'inhumane' treatment I'm talking about. Raping and genitally mutilating 12- year-old girls is inhumane, especially when they've been kidnapped by the hundreds in the first place. It is not our place to tell people half way around the world how they treat their dogs or their people when that has been their culture since the fall of Rome. I guess we'll just disagree. The use of chemical weapons by anyone should be stopped. If that is your goal, we are going to be at war in 20 countries. The 3d world sucks and we need to get over it. There are 20 countries using chemical weapons now? Remember, I don't include defoliants and incendiaries as chemical weapons. We were talking about abuses of women, and religious customs that offend us. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:34:08 -0400, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:36:20 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:06:18 -0400, wrote: The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. We simply do our best with what we've got. Not really or we would have used a MOP Then we would have spent $16 million and people would have a real bitch. As it is we spent only $170,000. I doubt if the MOP would have been as effective over a wide area. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:38:19 -0400, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:39:28 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 18:41:31 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:09:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:34 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 12:44:10 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: why we have any interest in the middle east at all. It certainly is not oil. Maybe it's just simple humanitarianism. There are people being ****ed over all over the planet and we really do not care in most places. In terms of percent of GNP, Sweden leads the list for foreign humanitarian aid by government at just under 1 percent of GNP. In terms of GNI (whatever that is) Turkey actually is on top. The USA government direct humanitarian aid by GNP is something like number 20 on the list. However, when you add in private and corporate donations, the USA dwarfs all other nations in total humanitarian aid at about 6.4 billion. Surprisingly, Turkey is next at $3.2 billion, then the UK at $2.8 billion. (2015 numbers) I guess it depends on who you say doesn't care. If the DoD budget is actually Humanitarian aid as has been posed here, we win ... by a long shot. Who 'posed' that? It may have been suggested that a small portion of the DoD budget was used for humanitarian aid, but your statement above is false. You are the one who says the war in Syria and Afghanistan is for humanitarian purposes. Actually I was referring mainly to our response to the use of chemical weapons. I will admit that more clarity would have been preferable. |
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:44:56 -0400, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:47:53 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:25:01 -0400, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 19:05:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 6:53 PM, wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 17:42:15 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 4/16/2017 4:45 PM, wrote: That is even sillier in this context than the one up thread a bit. If we were just interested in humanitarian causes, we would be bombing Afghanistan with food, books and satellite connected PCs. That would be a winning strategy in N Korea too. The vast majority of the NK population wouldn't know what the PC's were, let alone know how to use them. I guess you have not seen the stories about the people who are spreading cheap PCs among 3d world people. The kids pick it up and start using it right away with minimal training. http://one.laptop.org/ In North Korea? Most places there don't even have electricity to charge the batteries. Check out the night time satellite images. South Korea is lit up like a Christmas tree, right up to the border where it suddenly goes pitch black everywhere. That machine can be charged a couple different ways including a hand crank, solar or a various combination of electrical sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLPC_XO It is really a pretty cool machine.For $200 you can get 2, one for you and one for a kid in Fumbuck. If these PCs would enable North Koreans to see how the rest of the world lives, then I am sure the penalty for owning one would be very severe. That strategy works until it doesn't. As the Soviets found out, change can happen in the blink of an eye. It's worked for quite a while, and I don't see any activity to depose the current Supreme Almighty Leader! |
MOAB story
On 4/17/2017 2:45 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:42:10 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:44:16 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: ISIS influence could be blunted with some education and Kim would not last a week if his people actually understood the lie. Educate who? How? While you may be right about Kim's people, Kim has a huge Army to ensure his people do as he says. As long as he keeps his generals happy, he's got the population under his thumb. These regimes only survive because they can perpetuate the lie. I don't disagree with that. But, how do you educate the population to the truth? It's not as simple as cleaning up one of Harry's lies on rec.boats. While I was in Korea a North Korean fighter pilot defected to the south. He scared the **** out of a lot of folks at Osan Air Base, but it was able to land. Under questioning, the pilot stated he started thinking of defecting because of a package of Ramen soup mix he'd found on a beach. He couldn't believe that such a thing existed. Now, there may have been some embellishment, I don't know. But that's the word that came to the Combined Forces Command Hq. It does demonstrate just how cut off the NK population is from the rest of the world. As we used to say in the Navy, the following are "no ****" stories. When I went to China in 1986 the bathroom in the yet to be officially opened hotel had towels that appeared to be neatly folded to a width of about 8 inches and hanging on a rack. When I grabbed one, I realized it really *was* only 8 inches wide. I asked our Chinese host why they were so narrow. He laughed and then told me that the Chinese manufacturers of towels had only seen pictures of what Western or European towels looked like hanging on a holder and assumed they were only that wide. The day before I left the host took me to a shop to do some shopping for gifts to bring back home. As I walked from display counter to display counter I realized a growing crowd of little Chinese kids were following me, staring at me. I asked my host what they found so interesting. Again he laughed and said, "Richard, you have to understand that you are the first Caucasian they have ever seen and you look very strange to them". |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:59:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 4/17/2017 2:45 PM, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:42:10 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:44:16 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: ISIS influence could be blunted with some education and Kim would not last a week if his people actually understood the lie. Educate who? How? While you may be right about Kim's people, Kim has a huge Army to ensure his people do as he says. As long as he keeps his generals happy, he's got the population under his thumb. These regimes only survive because they can perpetuate the lie. I don't disagree with that. But, how do you educate the population to the truth? It's not as simple as cleaning up one of Harry's lies on rec.boats. While I was in Korea a North Korean fighter pilot defected to the south. He scared the **** out of a lot of folks at Osan Air Base, but it was able to land. Under questioning, the pilot stated he started thinking of defecting because of a package of Ramen soup mix he'd found on a beach. He couldn't believe that such a thing existed. Now, there may have been some embellishment, I don't know. But that's the word that came to the Combined Forces Command Hq. It does demonstrate just how cut off the NK population is from the rest of the world. As we used to say in the Navy, the following are "no ****" stories. When I went to China in 1986 the bathroom in the yet to be officially opened hotel had towels that appeared to be neatly folded to a width of about 8 inches and hanging on a rack. When I grabbed one, I realized it really *was* only 8 inches wide. I asked our Chinese host why they were so narrow. He laughed and then told me that the Chinese manufacturers of towels had only seen pictures of what Western or European towels looked like hanging on a holder and assumed they were only that wide. The day before I left the host took me to a shop to do some shopping for gifts to bring back home. As I walked from display counter to display counter I realized a growing crowd of little Chinese kids were following me, staring at me. I asked my host what they found so interesting. Again he laughed and said, "Richard, you have to understand that you are the first Caucasian they have ever seen and you look very strange to them". I believe every bit of it. Army talk: The difference between a 'war story' and a fairy tale. A fairy tale starts, "Once upon a time..." A war story starts, "This ain't no ****, but..." Old memories. |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:35:13 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:34:08 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:36:20 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:06:18 -0400, wrote: The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. We simply do our best with what we've got. Not really or we would have used a MOP Then we would have spent $16 million and people would have a real bitch. As it is we spent only $170,000. I doubt if the MOP would have been as effective over a wide area. If this was about "caves" a wide area would not be an issue. The MOP would have put the blast underground and destroyed the caves, not just knock the dust off the ceiling. I still am waiting to see how many people in that body count were just walking around in the open and how many were actually combatants. I remember "body counts" from 50 years ago. Women, children and water buffalo got counted right along with the VC and NVA. Harry buried them all tho ;-) |
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:37:36 -0400, Poco Deplorevole
wrote: Who 'posed' that? It may have been suggested that a small portion of the DoD budget was used for humanitarian aid, but your statement above is false. You are the one who says the war in Syria and Afghanistan is for humanitarian purposes. Actually I was referring mainly to our response to the use of chemical weapons. I will admit that more clarity would have been preferable. I was confused by your anecdotes of people buried up to the neck and being stoned to death, rape and genital mutilation ... sorry. Those things are not limited to the places where we find a reason to go to war. |
MOAB story
|
MOAB story
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 16:55:06 -0400, wrote:
On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 14:35:13 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 13:34:08 -0400, wrote: On Mon, 17 Apr 2017 08:36:20 -0400, Poco Deplorevole wrote: On Sun, 16 Apr 2017 22:06:18 -0400, wrote: The other end of those "burrows" are in Pakistan. So why do we even bother. We simply do our best with what we've got. Not really or we would have used a MOP Then we would have spent $16 million and people would have a real bitch. As it is we spent only $170,000. I doubt if the MOP would have been as effective over a wide area. If this was about "caves" a wide area would not be an issue. The MOP would have put the blast underground and destroyed the caves, not just knock the dust off the ceiling. I still am waiting to see how many people in that body count were just walking around in the open and how many were actually combatants. I remember "body counts" from 50 years ago. Women, children and water buffalo got counted right along with the VC and NVA. Harry buried them all tho ;-) A MOP is designed to penetrate, deeply, then explode. It is designed for a point target, such as an underground nuclear weapons production facility. The MOAB is an area weapon with tremendous overblast designed to crush whatever's below it. Besides, the MOAB is cheap. The MOPs run about $16 million each. |
MOAB story
4:35 PMPoco Deplorevole
- show quoted text - A MOP is designed to penetrate, deeply, then explode. It is designed for a point target, such as an underground nuclear weapons production facility. The MOAB is an area weapon with tremendous overblast designed to crush whatever's below it. Besides, the MOAB is cheap. The MOPs run about $16 million each. ..... Germany had a giant MOP sorta thing that were dropped over London in hopes of paralyzing the tube system the idea was to not explode on impact but to bury deep then the timer might ignite even days later destroying trains, tracks, people... In the 60s they actually found some un exploded ordnance in the subway systems there. Maybe into the 70s. |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:20 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2014 BoatBanter.com