USA behind again...
 

....but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for each grade in both subjects."

USA behind again...
 

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
...but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for each grade in both subjects."

As I'm sure you are aware, those countries are largely homogeneous societies with very strong values and school/work ethics. The children aren't coddled, they don't all get trophies at the end of the season. They are expected to perform. Very different than here.

Those countries are no places for snowflakes. :)

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:41:45 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
...but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for each grade in both subjects."

As I'm sure you are aware, those countries are largely homogeneous societies with very strong values and school/work ethics. The children aren't coddled, they don't all get trophies at the end of the season. They are expected to perform. Very different than here.

Those countries are no places for snowflakes. :)

Exactly, and the vast majority of parents of Asian kids here instill the same values and work
ethics. That's my point.

USA behind again...
 

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 5:27:04 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:41:45 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
...but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for each grade in both subjects."

As I'm sure you are aware, those countries are largely homogeneous societies with very strong values and school/work ethics. The children aren't coddled, they don't all get trophies at the end of the season. They are expected to perform. Very different than here.

Those countries are no places for snowflakes. :)

Exactly, and the vast majority of parents of Asian kids here instill the same values and work
ethics. That's my point.

I've always been impressed that they can come to this country barely speaking English and not largely knowing the laws and customs of our country, and in a generation the parents own a business and the kids are becoming doctors,lawyers and engineers. This is the land of opportunity, it just doesn't land in your lap because you were born here.

USA behind again...
 

Its Me wrote:
On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 5:27:04 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:41:45 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
...but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA
we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for
math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for
each grade in both subjects."

As I'm sure you are aware, those countries are largely homogeneous
societies with very strong values and school/work ethics. The children
aren't coddled, they don't all get trophies at the end of the season.
They are expected to perform. Very different than here.

Those countries are no places for snowflakes. :)

Exactly, and the vast majority of parents of Asian kids here instill the
same values and work
ethics. That's my point.

I've always been impressed that they can come to this country barely
speaking English and not largely knowing the laws and customs of our
country, and in a generation the parents own a business and the kids are
becoming doctors,lawyers and engineers. This is the land of opportunity,
it just doesn't land in your lap because you were born here.


Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

USA behind again...
 

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

I believe that. We have several generations of kids who have never had
to work for anything and really have had nothing bad happen to them.
When things don't work out for them they are victims and society has
failed them. The safety net has become a hammock.

USA behind again...
 

wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

I believe that. We have several generations of kids who have never had
to work for anything and really have had nothing bad happen to them.
When things don't work out for them they are victims and society has
failed them. The safety net has become a hammock.


We went to the Santa Cruz mountains to cut our Christmas tree today. Then
got a pizza and went towards the surfers at Steamer Lane. Passed a couple
of homeless encampments. Biggest percentage were probably under 30. I
guess mom and dad got tired of them free loading, so they had to,move out
and depend on the welfare system. Good pay for no work.

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill wrote:

Its Me wrote:
On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 5:27:04 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:41:45 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 3:26:15 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
...but I'll bet if they looked at just the Asian students in the USA
we'd be at the top of the list,
or close to it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...5e5_story.html

"Singapore topped the rankings, taking first place in both grades for
math and science on the
tests,..."

"Hong Kong, South Korea, Taiwan and Japan also dominated the lists for
each grade in both subjects."

As I'm sure you are aware, those countries are largely homogeneous
societies with very strong values and school/work ethics. The children
aren't coddled, they don't all get trophies at the end of the season.
They are expected to perform. Very different than here.

Those countries are no places for snowflakes. :)

Exactly, and the vast majority of parents of Asian kids here instill the
same values and work
ethics. That's my point.

I've always been impressed that they can come to this country barely
speaking English and not largely knowing the laws and customs of our
country, and in a generation the parents own a business and the kids are
becoming doctors,lawyers and engineers. This is the land of opportunity,
it just doesn't land in your lap because you were born here.


Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

There are exceptions. I had a couple while teaching, one whom I still remember...Heather. She would
not do a lick of homework.

The other 90+% were superb students with parents who really gave a ****.

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

With the Asians, he's talking the exceptions, from my experience. With the Latino kids, many of
their parents couldn't speak English and/or worked very long hours. Many would not come to
parent/teacher conferences even though we would provide an interpreter. Many were also dependant on
the kids to tell them what was going on. I had parents who didn't even know that report cards came
out. The kids would take them out of the mail boxes, sign them, and return them.

Harry would say these were all MS13 kids.

USA behind again...
 

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 23:39:02 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

I believe that. We have several generations of kids who have never had
to work for anything and really have had nothing bad happen to them.
When things don't work out for them they are victims and society has
failed them. The safety net has become a hammock.

===

I don't think that's universally true. It would be easy (but self
serving) to point out my own kids as an example. Instead I'd point
out their friends, who for the most part studied hard and worked hard
to get into good schools, have gotten graduate degrees, and have
hustled to establish themselves in good careers. For kids who have
done otherwise, a certain amount of blame falls to the parents who
frequently did not do enough to point them in the right direction and
keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.

USA behind again...
 

keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.
----

And beyond..

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.
----

And beyond..

===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?

USA behind again...
 

On Wednesday, November 30, 2016 at 1:19:58 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 23:39:02 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

I believe that. We have several generations of kids who have never had
to work for anything and really have had nothing bad happen to them.
When things don't work out for them they are victims and society has
failed them. The safety net has become a hammock.

===

I don't think that's universally true. It would be easy (but self
serving) to point out my own kids as an example. Instead I'd point
out their friends, who for the most part studied hard and worked hard
to get into good schools, have gotten graduate degrees, and have
hustled to establish themselves in good careers. For kids who have
done otherwise, a certain amount of blame falls to the parents who
frequently did not do enough to point them in the right direction and
keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.

The education process is like a three legged stool - parents, teachers, and students. If one leg is ineffective, the stool won't stand. In my experience, too damn many parents don't give a damm. It's 'too hard' to make their kids do the work, so they just let it go - and blame the teachers, of course. That's not to say that there aren't also a potful of ****ty teachers out there too. The NEA and AFT make it very hard to get rid of them. Now, I'm only badmouthing about 10-15% of the kids. The other 85-90% are great kids (and parents) and fun to work with.

USA behind again...
 

2:10
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:
- show quoted text -
===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?
....

I doubt if much Wayne. I know some professional students who have never had a working job in their life.

One is 48 and working on his 3rd doctorate. Also a fellow in a prestigious northeastern university. As long as there's grant money coming in...

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 12:52:13 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

2:10
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:
- show quoted text -
===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?
...

I doubt if much Wayne. I know some professional students who have never had a working job in their life.

One is 48 and working on his 3rd doctorate. Also a fellow in a prestigious northeastern university. As long as there's grant money coming in...

===

Academic life can be very rewarding in a non-monetary way but parents
should not be expected to subsidize it. At least they are not laying
around the house blaming everything but themselves.

USA behind again...
 

Academic life can be very rewarding in a non-monetary way but parents
should not be expected to subsidize it. At least they are not laying
around the house blaming everything but themselves.
......

Yes, Wayne, I agree and you are correct in that there are plenty of those that you describe as well..

USA behind again...
 

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.
----

And beyond..

===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?


I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 16:34:58 -0500, wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 12:52:13 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

2:10
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:
- show quoted text -
===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?
...

I doubt if much Wayne. I know some professional students who have never had a working job in their life.

One is 48 and working on his 3rd doctorate. Also a fellow in a prestigious northeastern university. As long as there's grant money coming in...

===

Academic life can be very rewarding in a non-monetary way but parents
should not be expected to subsidize it. At least they are not laying
around the house blaming everything but themselves.

Thought they were all protesting Trump or the top 1%, with a lot of liberal support of course.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.
----

And beyond..

===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?


I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Well, my dad couldn't help me with college, but he did help me, in 1962, buy my first car - a 1952
Studebaker. The thing used a quart of oil about every fillup, but the oil was only 10 cents a quart.
It wasn't the best of oils, I don't think. It was a pretty good car, 'til the back of the front
drivers seat busted off when I was reaching for a billfold. Actually, it was still pretty good. Used
a 2x4 to prop up the seat. Didn't do a lot of necking in the front seat of that car.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:19:49 -0500,
wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 23:39:02 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:30:09 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, November 29, 2016 at 10:17:42 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

Depends. I have Cambodian friends. She owns a donut shop, husband is now
a laid off machinist who works the shop. One daughter did not finish high
school, and nearly 30 Y.O. and no GED. Other is going to JC. Older kid,
did not seem to inherit the worker gene.

That seems to cross all ethnic and nationalities. We have plenty of
American snowflakes who lost the worker gene. My latino friends are
saying that about kids in their culture too.

Maybe it's the modern American culture that poison's them?

I believe that. We have several generations of kids who have never had
to work for anything and really have had nothing bad happen to them.
When things don't work out for them they are victims and society has
failed them. The safety net has become a hammock.

===

I don't think that's universally true. It would be easy (but self
serving) to point out my own kids as an example. Instead I'd point
out their friends, who for the most part studied hard and worked hard
to get into good schools, have gotten graduate degrees, and have
hustled to establish themselves in good careers. For kids who have
done otherwise, a certain amount of blame falls to the parents who
frequently did not do enough to point them in the right direction and
keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.

Even some of those who did do everything right like my son in law is
still buried so deep in college debt that his Masters degree and his
law degree are barely enough to pay his bills but that is a whole
other story.
I know lots of 20 somethings still living home with Mom and expecting
the world to come get them and make them rich some day. The other
problem, that drives my wife crazy is the 20-30 somethings who think
it is a god given right to manage their social network pages, shop and
surf the web at work. Sometimes the office internet connection is
crawling in the mud because there are a dozen people looking at cat
videos on You Tube. Needless to say viruses are a constant problem and
they have paid ransomware already to get the server back.
I would have fired someone over that but she says the lawyers said no,
not enough proof. (Even though the IT company tracked it back to one
computer and one non work related click).
If that happened at IBM when I was there, somebody would have been
carrying a box to the car with all of their personal **** in it, never
to return.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:10:09 -0500,
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

keep them moving forward. I can point to several cases where parents
are still subsidizing their kids lackadasical lifestyle well into
their 30s.
----

And beyond..

===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?

When I was 20 and just started working at IBM, my parents went the
other way. They moved to Florida and left me with the lease on their
apartment in Md.
At least I didn't have to move out, I just needed some roomies to help
with the rent and I needed some furniture. ;-)

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 12:52:13 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:

2:10
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:33:33 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote:
- show quoted text -
===

No motivation there. What are the chances that the kid will ever get
their act together in a case like that?
...

I doubt if much Wayne. I know some professional students who have never had a working job in their life.

One is 48 and working on his 3rd doctorate. Also a fellow in a prestigious northeastern university. As long as there's grant money coming in...

Part of that is the stupid way college loans work. As long as you are
still in school, you don't have to start paying on your loans. After a
while you can't afford to leave school. That is great for the schools,
terrible for the student. It makes school a fiscal addiction that has
withdrawal problems worse than smack.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)

USA behind again...
 

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)


I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)


I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.

I don't drive that much these days It is about 1500 miles a year or
something. I really can't justify buying a new car and I don't measure
my self worth by what I drive.
My Prelude is rare enough to be unique, it still handles pretty well
and is fast enough for me so I am OK with it

USA behind again...
 

On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)


I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.

My wife has a 2013 diesel Volks which she will be selling back to the dealer because of VW's diesel
cheating. She'll get a check for about 25.6K which she's using to buy a new Suburu Outback. Nice
car. Much more comfortable than the VW and the mileage is pretty good. With the difference in price
'tween gas and diesel, she breaks close to even.

USA behind again...
 

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 11:18:33 AM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)


I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.

My wife has a 2013 diesel Volks which she will be selling back to the dealer because of VW's diesel
cheating. She'll get a check for about 25.6K which she's using to buy a new Suburu Outback. Nice
car. Much more comfortable than the VW and the mileage is pretty good. With the difference in price
'tween gas and diesel, she breaks close to even.

Are they doing buy-backs? I had heard that they were coming up with a fix they could apply to bring them into compliance.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 10:05:56 -0800 (PST), Its Me wrote:

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 11:18:33 AM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.

Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)


I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.

My wife has a 2013 diesel Volks which she will be selling back to the dealer because of VW's diesel
cheating. She'll get a check for about 25.6K which she's using to buy a new Suburu Outback. Nice
car. Much more comfortable than the VW and the mileage is pretty good. With the difference in price
'tween gas and diesel, she breaks close to even.

Are they doing buy-backs? I had heard that they were coming up with a fix they could apply to bring them into compliance.

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:32 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

Of course everyone knows. Mileage will go down when they tune the
computer for lower emissions. Otherwise they would not have cheated in
the first place.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:39:34 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:32 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

Of course everyone knows. Mileage will go down when they tune the
computer for lower emissions. Otherwise they would not have cheated in
the first place.

Yeah, but no one knows how far down.

USA behind again...
 

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:22:30 PM UTC-5, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:39:34 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:32 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

Of course everyone knows. Mileage will go down when they tune the
computer for lower emissions. Otherwise they would not have cheated in
the first place.

Yeah, but no one knows how far down.

Actually, on the Audi boards (that are also affected with their TDI) the word is it is a re-tune along with new exhaust/cats, with similar end results.. Some folks love theirs so much they are talking about keeping them, but then re-tuning them after that "fix" back to original or better state. Some of the tunes allow you to re-install the factory tune when needed, then swapping that back out for the tuned version. On some of the cars (like my 3.0T V6 supercharged gas engine), a tune program can be worth 75+ HP. I'm just not interested.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 17:22:31 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:39:34 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:32 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

Of course everyone knows. Mileage will go down when they tune the
computer for lower emissions. Otherwise they would not have cheated in
the first place.

Yeah, but no one knows how far down.

Yup. I would guess the average guy wouldn't even notice but it must
have been enough to get them to take this huge chance. I have to
believe the guy who made this decision at the corporate level was sent
packing but who knows. This actually might be more a performance hit
than a fuel economy hit. Did the state/feds demand you fix this? I
also wonder if these will be hot sellers in places with no emission
testing. I bet there are guys who would want to hack their car the
other way. I see plenty of ads for reflashing ECUs or new chips on
other cars to boost horsepower.

USA behind again...
 

Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.
Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)

I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.
My wife has a 2013 diesel Volks which she will be selling back to the dealer because of VW's diesel
cheating. She'll get a check for about 25.6K which she's using to buy a new Suburu Outback. Nice
car. Much more comfortable than the VW and the mileage is pretty good. With the difference in price
'tween gas and diesel, she breaks close to even.

She will like not having to look for open diesel pumps. I had a diesel
BMW and that was the worst thing about it.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:50:24 -0500, Alex wrote:

She will like not having to look for open diesel pumps. I had a diesel
BMW and that was the worst thing about it.

===

It depends where you live. Some places have lots of diesel pumps,
others you have to look around.

USA behind again...
 

wrote:
On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:50:24 -0500, Alex wrote:

She will like not having to look for open diesel pumps. I had a diesel
BMW and that was the worst thing about it.

===

It depends where you live. Some places have lots of diesel pumps,
others you have to look around.


Lots of the costco's here are adding diesel.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 22:44:10 -0500,
wrote:

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:50:24 -0500, Alex wrote:

She will like not having to look for open diesel pumps. I had a diesel
BMW and that was the worst thing about it.

===

It depends where you live. Some places have lots of diesel pumps,
others you have to look around.

Certainly plenty here. I can't think of a station in Lee County that
doesn't have a green pump.

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 19:24:43 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 17:22:31 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 15:39:34 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2016 14:26:32 -0500, Poco Loco
wrote:

The owners had a choice - buyback or a fix. No one really new how the 'fix' would affect the new
mileage, performance, or future value.

Of course everyone knows. Mileage will go down when they tune the
computer for lower emissions. Otherwise they would not have cheated in
the first place.

Yeah, but no one knows how far down.

Yup. I would guess the average guy wouldn't even notice but it must
have been enough to get them to take this huge chance. I have to
believe the guy who made this decision at the corporate level was sent
packing but who knows. This actually might be more a performance hit
than a fuel economy hit. Did the state/feds demand you fix this? I
also wonder if these will be hot sellers in places with no emission
testing. I bet there are guys who would want to hack their car the
other way. I see plenty of ads for reflashing ECUs or new chips on
other cars to boost horsepower.

It is against the state law to circumvent the OBDII system emissions testing. As Volkswagen has
programmed the system to detect the OBDII monitor and report emissions results which are false, the
autos are being operated illegally. Not sure how they would become 'hot sellers', even in places
with no emissions testing. Why would they be any hotter, because the on-board computer presents
false readings?

USA behind again...
 

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 19:50:24 -0500, Alex wrote:

Poco Loco wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 23:52:33 -0600, Califbill wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0600, Califbill
wrote:

I have a friend who used to be really wealthy. Very big landscape
contractor. He bought cars for his kids, etc. most of his kids are social
disasters. Grandkids a mixed bunch. One, 28 yo girl, got a DUI while
coming from work at a pizza parlor, and cashed a check from grandpa she
should not have. Was for rent only, which she did not need. My kids both
turned out well, did not overspend the credit cards in university. They had
to buy their first cars, so they know what it takes. I did buy them new
cars when they went in to their senior years at university. But both still
do not waste money.
Nobody ever bought me a car but I have bought a bunch for my wife and
kids. Yet I am the one still driving the 20 year old Honda. What's
wrong with this picture? ;-)

I drive a lot. So drive a 12 year old pickup, that replaced a 99 Ford
Expedition, that I had for company car at TI.. And an 1989 S10 pickup.
Wife got a new Toyota in 2009 to replace a 1995 S10 Blazer. Blazer, end of
safe life. And the Expedition did not fit my requirement for a camper and
boat puller. Basically drive until wore out. Am looking at a Chevy Volt
for,around town. Easy parking, and carpool lane friendly.
My wife has a 2013 diesel Volks which she will be selling back to the dealer because of VW's diesel
cheating. She'll get a check for about 25.6K which she's using to buy a new Suburu Outback. Nice
car. Much more comfortable than the VW and the mileage is pretty good. With the difference in price
'tween gas and diesel, she breaks close to even.

She will like not having to look for open diesel pumps. I had a diesel
BMW and that was the worst thing about it.

....especially at BP stations where all the friggin' nozzles are green! Imagine pulling into a
station where only one pump is diesel, you don't know where it is, and you're driving a pickup with
a 33' trailer on the ass end!