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Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:49:46 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
How about the insurance company that has to pick up the tab? This does bring up an interesting point. Insurance companies are in the risk business and if this was so risky, we should expect that his homeowner's insurance would be out of sight. Tim, what do you pay per $100,000 in coverage? How bout you Harry? Richard? That would be an impartial indicator, made by underwriters who do this for a living and actually have skin in the game |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:08:12 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 5:58 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:15:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/4/16 4:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: 1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit. From Harry's county web site "Property owners may construct their own dwelling on their own property without a license (with proper permits). " Since these are generally state law, I am sure I could do it in PG too. I do agree, the process is more complicated these days but that is what happens when the government gets to be out of control. The inspection process has not changed much and that is where safety comes in. Why is the government out of control? The electrician and plumber who did my genny got their permits without delays or difficulties, and the inspectors came out in short order. I simply what qualifies for a fast tracked (while you wait) on the Calvert County web site. They are really just for things that should not really need one anyway. (sheds, decks etc) At a certain point it is just a building tax. Improperly built decks collapse and kill or maim people, but, I suppose, if you are a loonytarian, anyone who steps onto a deck should know the risks. Old, legally built decks can collapse too, what's your point? Should they have a continuing program of inspections? I understand the nanny state would try to legislate away all risk but at a certain point it just becomes another form of tyranny or more often, just another tax. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:16:30 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/4/16 5:59 PM, wrote: Yeah you managed to put a gas block in an AR, all by yourself. First I had to unpin it, remove it and grind it into shape, and then reinstall it with the pins. Sounds exhausting I guess I could have sent it to you, but, then, I'd have no assurance it would work properly upon getting it back. If I had the rifle to fit it to it would work fine. I do have some ordinance training from Uncle Sam. You impress me as a "press on regardless" sort of home improvement guy. I get by I'd never hire you. I wouldn't work for you, or anyone else. It would be illegal. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:32:45 -0500, Alex wrote:
I'm supposed to get a permit to install/replace a ceiling fan. They just want to collect your money. How is a ceiling fan replacement going to be inspected? I guess they might flip the switch to see if it runs. They also want a permit for a faucet replacement. We have one AHJ here who wants a permit for any device replacement. (receptacle, switch etc) I can only think that building is so slow in his patch that they are really looking for work. Even the other inspectors at my meetings think he is off the reservation. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 17:35:35 -0800 (PST), Its Me
wrote: On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:58:27 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:15:48 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/4/16 4:08 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: 1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit. From Harry's county web site "Property owners may construct their own dwelling on their own property without a license (with proper permits). " Since these are generally state law, I am sure I could do it in PG too. I do agree, the process is more complicated these days but that is what happens when the government gets to be out of control. The inspection process has not changed much and that is where safety comes in. Why is the government out of control? The electrician and plumber who did my genny got their permits without delays or difficulties, and the inspectors came out in short order. I simply what qualifies for a fast tracked (while you wait) on the Calvert County web site. They are really just for things that should not really need one anyway. (sheds, decks etc) At a certain point it is just a building tax. Permits here are tougher than they are in Maryland but it is mostly just corporate welfare, benefitting people with a large compliance department over the small guy. That is true of most government regulation tho. If you can send a bunch of lawyers and some carefully targeted campaign contributions, regulation really does not apply to you. And permits are just vehicles to let the tax man know that you are improving the property. So they can up your tax bill in the next cycle. Around here, taxes are not really dependent on permits. I have done a few things without a permit but it still showed up promptly on my taxes. They look at aerials every year and do an on site inspection about every 2 years. They don't really do the inspections sequentially by address so they may be there to look at your neighbor's house but they still may take a peek at yours. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. It was just a hobby for me and I was paid by the hour per inspection so there was no reason to rush. I was probably the easiest going inspector any of these guys have ever dealt with, since I really did not have any "red tags" and no real attitude about who I was. I got compliance by cajoling them into just doing their job. Most were state employees so they would get paid either way and there was not really much I could do to them. In a few cases I actually fixed the violations myself. The contractors were actually better and I did have a little weight over them because I could hold up their pay. The best pure mechanics were inmates in the prisons. They had all the time in the world and a desire to keep their job. I do think it is important to hire qualified people but I am just not sure the current licensing and inspection process guarantees that. Certainly not in Florida. The biggest complaint you hear at an inspector meeting is about the lack of workmanship among the trades and how little they can do about it. The codes just take a sideways swipe at workmanship and without a specific violation, there is not much you can do about sloppy. You can go to just about any inspector web site and look at egregious violation pictures of work done by so called "qualified" people. If for no other reason, the home owner should be trying to do a good job, because he has to live there. Things I build exceed the code as a general rule. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:39:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: I'll say one thing though ... I'll do a ceiling fan anyday but when it comes to plumbing ... no way. Plumbing and I don't get along. Never did, never will. Plumbing (old work) is just nasty but if you are willing to cut it all out and start over it is not really that tough.. Particularly with plastic pipe. Back in the olden days with cast iron and galvanized there was a level of skill involved. Copper actually made that fairly easy if you knew how to sweat pipe. PVC made it childs play. The tricky thing is when you get to vents and drains. I have taken a few classes in it and it really is not that complicated if you can step back and understand where the potential siphons are. We had one instructor who really made the whole thing easy to understand without getting into all of the code language, which is tortured to say the least. Once you understand the concepts involved, the code starts making sense. I am required to take a certain number of continuing education hours every 2 years but 8 hours of that can be an "elective" and I usually try for something that is not electrical since I already spend plenty of time online discussing code issues. I always end up with far more hours than I need anyway. There are plenty of opportunities for free classes and I take them when I can. In spite of what Harry thinks, I spend a lot of time in a learning environment, it is just not modern european art so I guess it doesn't count. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:50:35 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: rec.boats is certainly full of fascinating outlooks on many subjects. I have a pretty fair knowledge of electrical power distribution but I am far from being an electrician. When it comes to *major* electrical installations in my house I hire an electrician who is current on the codes. Many things that have changed since knob and tube wiring. :-) You guys are on the 14 code so there are lots of changes, just since the 11. Most of the stuff around the service really hasn't changed much since the Clinton administration and the biggest changes were no more 3 wire dryer/range plugs and 4 wire feeders to your out buildings. As Phil Simmonds said in the proposal, the war is over, we don't need to save the copper. The big ongoing changes are around GFCIs and AFCIs. In the 14 you have very few places that do not require an AFCI. There are also required tamper resistant receptacles damn near everywhere and weather resistant receptacles outside. That is probably the most important for the weekend warrior if you want to stay compliant. There are a number of publications every cycle about significant changes. This is a free one (the PP slides for a presentation I attended) http://www.necanet.org/docs/default-...f.pdf?sfvrsn=0 |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:54:14 -0800 (PST), Tim
wrote: How about a fireman who while performing his job is killed by the failure of under-spec'd products or techniques? firemen take that risk daily. fires ignite by a faulty whatever, even when new buildings are up to code. It happens. Yes, Chicago may be one of the most dangerous place for firemen to work and they have the strictest electrical code in the nation along with union rules that assures you have a journeyman twisting every wire nut and pulling every wire (or at least standing there watching an apprentice do it) |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 16:59:54 -0500 (EST), fire man wrote:
Keyser Söze Wrote in message: On 3/4/16 2:16 PM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:31:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: Gosh, and you can't remember with whom you worked while serving your country in Vietnam. What a hero, Krause. -- Not even a nice try, dickhead. Of course I remember, but no one has to respond to your repetitive and idiotic "demands." Go **** yourself, if you can get it up, which I doubt. Every time someone embarrasses you with the truth, you seem to respond with vulgarities and attempted put downs. One would expect you, with your fine education, to be a little more clever. Skipper could teach you a thing or two about turning a phrase. Or perhaps he could just tell the truth. -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
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Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." Referring more to this: "The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed." Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-) |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." Referring more to this: "The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed." Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-) Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison. As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact. -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/2016 7:30 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." Referring more to this: "The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed." Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-) Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison. As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact. Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an early Saturday morning? |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:39:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/5/2016 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." Referring more to this: "The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed." Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-) Compare that to some of Harry's bragadacio. No comparison. As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I don't consider the sentence above to be either bragging or boasting. Just a fact. Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an early Saturday morning? Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now. -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote:
As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 7:39 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an early Saturday morning? I've been unimpressed by the design, choice of materials, and execution of many of the "homebrew" construction projects I've seen depicted here in rec.boats. |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 8:05 AM, John H. wrote:
Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now. -- Wow...it is a hopeful sign that both you and your idiot buddy, FlaJim, are disintegrating before our very eyes, as it were. Maybe you an "putt" the ankle bone on the other foot. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:14:13 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 7:39 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an early Saturday morning? I've been unimpressed by the design, choice of materials, and execution of many of the "homebrew" construction projects I've seen depicted here in rec.boats. Of course not. You didn't do them. -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:17:15 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 8:05 AM, John H. wrote: Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now. -- Wow...it is a hopeful sign that both you and your idiot buddy, FlaJim, are disintegrating before our very eyes, as it were. Maybe you an "putt" the ankle bone on the other foot. Write much? -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote:
7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 10:08 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Oh, damn...too late: Christie Verifies Size of Trump's Penis NEW YORK - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie held a press conference Friday afternoon to personally vouch for the size of Republican frontrunner Donald Trump's penis. "I have personally seen it, and let me assure you, it is substantial," Christie said. The New Jersey Governor refused to divulge the circumstances under which he ascertained the size of the billionaire's penis, saying only, "I am proud to be associated with such a big dick." From Andy Borowitz, of course. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:11:44 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 10:08 AM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Oh, damn...too late: Christie Verifies Size of Trump's Penis NEW YORK - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie held a press conference Friday afternoon to personally vouch for the size of Republican frontrunner Donald Trump's penis. "I have personally seen it, and let me assure you, it is substantial," Christie said. The New Jersey Governor refused to divulge the circumstances under which he ascertained the size of the billionaire's penis, saying only, "I am proud to be associated with such a big dick." From Andy Borowitz, of course. You feeling mesmerized by penis sizes, Krause? -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:19:34 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote: On 3/5/2016 6:40 AM, John H. wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:35:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 8:28 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 19:11:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:54 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 18:32:31 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? Because people are responsible for their own destiny? If Tim's house burns down, why is that anybody else's business? You can't be serious. How about the people who may someday buy Tim's house full of unpermited and un-inspected for basic safety purposes? (Not doubting Tim ... just using him as an example since he said permits are not required where he lives for residential buildings). Caveat Emptor? If they live in a place where they know there was no building code process, they need to do their due diligence. There is still no guarantee that a homeowner did unpermitted work, even in your town. Perhaps it is actually better if you don't have this illusion of safety. How about unsuspecting guests that may be staying in a DIYurselfer abode full of "modifications"? I could say the same thing about a dozen other things that may be lurking in a house. You are probably more likely to be bitten by a dog and then there are the guns ;-) I suspect you will find they have a lot more fires in places with strict building codes than places without because the homeowners are generally more aware of their responsibilities. There are certainly many things a homeowner should and can do without a permit. But major changes ... structural or electrical ... should require a permit and a followup inspection for code and safety. Most fires are caused by the stuff the home owner plugs in, not the building wiring. I have been through this process myself several times and my wife built over 100 houses. Trust me the permit and inspection process is just a feel good program that employs a lot of bureaucrats. I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything. Your typical muni inspector leaves the shop with 20 or 30 cards in his pocket, spread out over a county. He is not really looking at much. The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed. I was working on a lot of pretty interesting projects tho. I guess you are special. But most inspectors know what they are looking for since they do it on a regular basis and they get to know who does good work and who doesn't. My son-in-law is a licensed electrician with his own business. The inspectors in the towns he does work have gotten to know him and the type of work he does. They can tell with just a cursory inspection his work is to code and is done correctly. Like I said the illusion of safety. You are saying they just trust the guy doing the work to never screw up. Most residential contractors are hiring other people to do the work. I don't know much about Massachusetts but in Florida and Maryland, the contractor is licensed but the guy actually twisting the wirenut will be anything from a carded journeyman to a guy they just hired last week. Anyone with a rusty pair of Kliens and a mouth full of wirenuts could call himself an electrician when the housing boom was going and I bet it is getting that way again. The contractor is only as good as the worst guy on his team, on his worst day. The inspector is only spot checking the work. "Drive by" inspections are more common than the AHJs want to admit. I wouldn't just pick on residential. When I was at IBM and also an inspector, I had a standing bet that I could find a violation just about anywhere we were. I never bought my own coffee if they were willing to play. I find your thinking on this subject to be somewhat conflicting but also amusing. On one hand you dismiss the importance of having qualified and licensed people doing structural or electrical work on homes or whatever yet you brag about your 8 years of being a super sleuth "inspector" of other people's work. I saw no bragging. Is this bragging? "I used to have plenty of time to do inspections because I only did 1 or 2 a day but I still knew I was not able to check everything or even a significant percentage of everything." Referring more to this: "The guys I was inspecting were always shocked at the stuff I looked at but it was really more curiosity than inspecting. I did embarrass them a few times, seeing stuff they walked by every day and never noticed." Maybe "bragging" is the wrong word. "Boasting? perhaps? :-) Nope, just saying a guy like me who was not really in the electrical trade looked at things with different eyes and seeing things they never noticed. The one that still amazed all of us was on the VA hospital in Port Charlotte. They were using EMT as support straps between the metal studs. They then used one holers to fasten the raceways to the pieces of EMT with Tek screws. One of the installers had a touch of dyslexia one day and shot a buttload of Tek screws into the raceways, strapping the support pieces. Those guys walked by that for weeks and nobody noticed it. That was an example of an embarrassed super and contractor. Another one was a pipe job at Hendry Correctional where an inmate very carefully bent "2000" in a stick of EMT, they had wire in it and the lights were on. Nobody saw it until I pointed it out. It was hiding in plain sight. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 05 Mar 2016 08:39:06 -0500, John H.
wrote: On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:14:13 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 7:39 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote: Whatever John. I was not addressing you anyway and I am not really interested in getting in a stupid argument with you. What's the temp down there anyway? Shouldn't you be heading for the golf course on an early Saturday morning? I've been unimpressed by the design, choice of materials, and execution of many of the "homebrew" construction projects I've seen depicted here in rec.boats. Of course not. You didn't do them. Don't you mean, he didn't hire some union guy to do it? |
Yo Calif Bill
On 3/5/16 10:23 AM, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:11:44 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 10:08 AM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Oh, damn...too late: Christie Verifies Size of Trump's Penis NEW YORK - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie held a press conference Friday afternoon to personally vouch for the size of Republican frontrunner Donald Trump's penis. "I have personally seen it, and let me assure you, it is substantial," Christie said. The New Jersey Governor refused to divulge the circumstances under which he ascertained the size of the billionaire's penis, saying only, "I am proud to be associated with such a big dick." From Andy Borowitz, of course. You feeling mesmerized by penis sizes, Krause? -- Obviously you missed your party's last ****ing contest, er, debate. |
Yo Calif Bill
|
Yo Calif Bill
10:49 AMKeyser Söze
- show quoted text - The electricians and plumbers who did our generator install were working for union contractors. Their prices were lower than those of the non-union generator contractor up the road. ........ Moonlighters? Lol |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 11:47:29 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 10:23 AM, John H. wrote: On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:11:44 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 10:08 AM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Oh, damn...too late: Christie Verifies Size of Trump's Penis NEW YORK - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie held a press conference Friday afternoon to personally vouch for the size of Republican frontrunner Donald Trump's penis. "I have personally seen it, and let me assure you, it is substantial," Christie said. The New Jersey Governor refused to divulge the circumstances under which he ascertained the size of the billionaire's penis, saying only, "I am proud to be associated with such a big dick." From Andy Borowitz, of course. You feeling mesmerized by penis sizes, Krause? -- Obviously you missed your party's last ****ing contest, er, debate. I watched none of it. You were obviously enthralled. -- Ban liars, tax cheats, idiots, audiophools, and narcissists...not guns! |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:11:44 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 10:08 AM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Oh, damn...too late: Christie Verifies Size of Trump's Penis NEW YORK - New Jersey Governor Chris Christie held a press conference Friday afternoon to personally vouch for the size of Republican frontrunner Donald Trump's penis. "I have personally seen it, and let me assure you, it is substantial," Christie said. The New Jersey Governor refused to divulge the circumstances under which he ascertained the size of the billionaire's penis, saying only, "I am proud to be associated with such a big dick." From Andy Borowitz, of course. I think he said Trump IS a big dick. Bill Maher pointed out that they waited until the black guy left before they started talking about big dicks. |
Yo Calif Bill
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/4/2016 8:32 PM, Alex wrote: Mr. Luddite wrote: On 3/4/2016 6:27 PM, Tim wrote: On Friday, March 4, 2016 at 5:11:49 PM UTC-6, Mr. Luddite wrote: On 3/4/2016 3:46 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 15:13:06 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 2:57 PM, wrote: On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:51:52 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: On 3/4/2016 1:33 PM, Keyser Söze wrote: On 3/4/16 1:00 PM, Tim wrote: 11:46 On Fri, 4 Mar 2016 02:37:36 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote: - show quoted text - If you can get the generator for $3500, why would it cost $6500 to hook it up? I suspect they were charging you quite a bit more for the gen set. It sounds like you already had most of the infrastructure in place anyway. In my case the gas line is roughed in with a valve on a capped pipe (when they plumbed in the pool heater) and I would need about 50' of 2ga aluminum SER cable ($80 or so). I doubt I would spend more than $300-400 to install it. This thing comes with the transfer switch. I thought that was a good price but Harry would not let that stand. -------- Some people think that if it costs way more then it has to be better. Some people would prefer to have the job done by properly trained, experience, and insured licensed contractors and workers. In some places it's the only way to get a permit to do it and it can become a problem if major changes or additions are made to a property by DIY'ers when it comes time to sell it. Homeowners can pull permits here. I was the "owner builder" for my driveway, the addition and the pool. Of course we are not one of those northern mobbed up union states. The reality is, Maryland isn't either. I was owner builder for my 2 additions there too. Both were fairly extensive. The biggest one included a structural, plumbing, electrical, roofing, grading, driveway and HVAC permit along with a DOT permit to cross the right of way. I got all of them in one day. Amazing I thought. That was 1977 and I bet it is harder now. I hired a mason for the concrete and block/brick but I did the rest myself. That has been my policy since. I can do concrete and block but I am slower than I want it to go. I went from this http://gfretwell.com/ftp/72house.jpg to this http://gfretwell.com/ftp/1977%20house.jpg 1977. Almost 40 years ago. Things have changed a bit. I suppose I could look it up but I bet homeowners can still pull permits in Maryland. I know they can here. As far as I know homeowers can pull permits here also but some projects require a licensed whatever to actually do or supervise the work. Depends on what the project is. The average weekend warrior cannot possibly be current on the ever changing building and electrical codes. For example, years ago I ran some heavy duty speaker wire in some walls in a room in the basement that we were finishing. Perfectly acceptable then but not now. You have to use a special wire designed for that purpose because it was discovered that ordinary speaker wire ... even 12 ga ... allowed a fire to travel along it like a fuse. That's one advantage of living where I do. We don't have building permits. Maybe for commercial property but for residence and farms, no... Why is that an advantage? I'm supposed to get a permit to install/replace a ceiling fan. They just want to collect your money. How is a ceiling fan replacement going to be inspected? I guess they might flip the switch to see if it runs. They also want a permit for a faucet replacement. Your local codes must be unique. Never heard of anyone having to pull a permit for a ceiling fan or faucet anywhere. But putting in a whole house generator, a pool, a major addition ... absolutely. I'll say one thing though ... I'll do a ceiling fan anyday but when it comes to plumbing ... no way. Plumbing and I don't get along. Never did, never will. A faucet replacement is easier than a ceiling fan - quicker, too. |
Yo Calif Bill
|
Yo Calif Bill
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 8:05 AM, John H. wrote: Temp is 36. 'Chipped' my ankle bone, whatever that means. Won't be golfing for a while. Go to the ortho guy Monday AM. Running around in a splint now. -- Wow...it is a hopeful sign that both you and your idiot buddy, FlaJim, are disintegrating before our very eyes, as it were. Maybe you an "putt" the ankle bone on the other foot. Dumb... |
Yo Calif Bill
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/5/16 9:31 AM, Tim wrote: 7:07 AMKeyser Söze On 3/5/16 7:30 AM, John H. wrote: As a commander, I often inspected my troops and their equipment. Usually I saw things that were overlooked by the NCO's and the troops. I'll just bet you inspected their "equipment." ---- So, what are you insinuating there, Harry? Well, the three leading assholes contending for the GOP nomination are bragging about which one has the biggest dick. As a former commander, Herring could inspect the fellas and their "equipment" and report back. Another lie and an attack. Grow up Krause. |
Yo Calif Bill
On Sat, 5 Mar 2016 22:38:19 -0500, Alex wrote:
A faucet replacement is easier than a ceiling fan - quicker, too. The argument I hear in the inspector community is most older homes do not have "fan rated" ceiling boxes and most home owners do not know how to tell the difference. A standard ceiling box is rated for a dead load of 50 pounds. A fan box is rated for a live load of 70 pounds. (bigger screws, better attachment to structure and the load is carried by the back of the box, not "ears" that might flex and fracture) These days with AFCIs those big kludge ceiling boxes are also not as forgiving. Ceiling fans got a terrible reputation for tripping AFCIs and it was a bum rap. The problem turned out to be that big red wire nut with 3 or 4 white wires in it. When you have a regular breaker and you ground the neutral, you will never notice. If it is a GFCI or AFCI it will trip immediately. If there is the slightest amount of conductor exposed, you have a real good chance of it touching the hickey, part of the box or a bare ground wire. That will usually be an intermittent failure, maybe only at one fan speed or just when the vibration lines up the stars right. I normally do not advise taping up wire nuts but this may be an exception. |
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