On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:42:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I seem to recall discussions during the hearing of the overthrow of
Gaddafi. I guess I've forgotten what "the plan" was to fill the power
vacuum in Iraq after the Bush/Cheney war.

*That* was the biggest error made by Bush and his administration. They
didn't anticipate a power vacuum. They planned and called for free
elections allowing the people of Iraq to democratically choose their
leadership like the rest of the civilized, free world.

That is the flaw in our thinking. We tend to assume these 3d world
countries are "civilized" and just waiting for a Jeffersonian
democracy to be offered to them.
They are ruled by dictators because that is the only form of
government that can control them. Without that single point of
control, they quickly dissolve into a warring rabble of feuding tribes
and cults with 1000 year old conflicts.

If the west would just leave them alone to kill each other, they would
leave us alone. You notice, we don't see a lot of terrorism here
coming from central Africa. That is because we are not spending a lot
of time there meddling in their civil wars. They are more interested
in "death to that guy down the road" than "death to America".

On 10/30/2015 1:05 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:42:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I seem to recall discussions during the hearing of the overthrow of
Gaddafi. I guess I've forgotten what "the plan" was to fill the power
vacuum in Iraq after the Bush/Cheney war.

*That* was the biggest error made by Bush and his administration. They
didn't anticipate a power vacuum. They planned and called for free
elections allowing the people of Iraq to democratically choose their
leadership like the rest of the civilized, free world.

That is the flaw in our thinking. We tend to assume these 3d world
countries are "civilized" and just waiting for a Jeffersonian
democracy to be offered to them.
They are ruled by dictators because that is the only form of
government that can control them. Without that single point of
control, they quickly dissolve into a warring rabble of feuding tribes
and cults with 1000 year old conflicts.

If the west would just leave them alone to kill each other, they would
leave us alone. You notice, we don't see a lot of terrorism here
coming from central Africa. That is because we are not spending a lot
of time there meddling in their civil wars. They are more interested
in "death to that guy down the road" than "death to America".



Problem is, historically the USA does not tend to "ignore" barbaric
dictatorships that kill hundreds or thousands of their own citizens
in order to maintain power. It's a damned if you do, damned if you
don't situation. It doesn't sit well in people's minds when we ignore
pleas for help by people being systematically exterminated.

On 10/30/2015 1:17 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/30/2015 1:05 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:42:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I seem to recall discussions during the hearing of the overthrow of
Gaddafi. I guess I've forgotten what "the plan" was to fill the power
vacuum in Iraq after the Bush/Cheney war.

*That* was the biggest error made by Bush and his administration. They
didn't anticipate a power vacuum. They planned and called for free
elections allowing the people of Iraq to democratically choose their
leadership like the rest of the civilized, free world.

That is the flaw in our thinking. We tend to assume these 3d world
countries are "civilized" and just waiting for a Jeffersonian
democracy to be offered to them.
They are ruled by dictators because that is the only form of
government that can control them. Without that single point of
control, they quickly dissolve into a warring rabble of feuding tribes
and cults with 1000 year old conflicts.

If the west would just leave them alone to kill each other, they would
leave us alone. You notice, we don't see a lot of terrorism here
coming from central Africa. That is because we are not spending a lot
of time there meddling in their civil wars. They are more interested
in "death to that guy down the road" than "death to America".



Problem is, historically the USA does not tend to "ignore" barbaric
dictatorships that kill hundreds or thousands of their own citizens
in order to maintain power. It's a damned if you do, damned if you
don't situation. It doesn't sit well in people's minds when we ignore
pleas for help by people being systematically exterminated.


We need to take baby steps. Teach them to use toilet paper first.

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:21:32 -0400, Justan Olphart
wrote:

We need to take baby steps. Teach them to use toilet paper first.

Typical answer. I bet the Koch brothers put you up to that.

"Make the world safe for Angel Soft and Quilted Northern" ;-)

On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 13:17:46 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/30/2015 1:05 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2015 12:42:55 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I seem to recall discussions during the hearing of the overthrow of
Gaddafi. I guess I've forgotten what "the plan" was to fill the power
vacuum in Iraq after the Bush/Cheney war.

*That* was the biggest error made by Bush and his administration. They
didn't anticipate a power vacuum. They planned and called for free
elections allowing the people of Iraq to democratically choose their
leadership like the rest of the civilized, free world.

That is the flaw in our thinking. We tend to assume these 3d world
countries are "civilized" and just waiting for a Jeffersonian
democracy to be offered to them.
They are ruled by dictators because that is the only form of
government that can control them. Without that single point of
control, they quickly dissolve into a warring rabble of feuding tribes
and cults with 1000 year old conflicts.

If the west would just leave them alone to kill each other, they would
leave us alone. You notice, we don't see a lot of terrorism here
coming from central Africa. That is because we are not spending a lot
of time there meddling in their civil wars. They are more interested
in "death to that guy down the road" than "death to America".



Problem is, historically the USA does not tend to "ignore" barbaric
dictatorships that kill hundreds or thousands of their own citizens
in order to maintain power. It's a damned if you do, damned if you
don't situation. It doesn't sit well in people's minds when we ignore
pleas for help by people being systematically exterminated.


I think it may be a policy we need to reevaluate. Before we jump in
and topple a stable government, we should take a long hard look at
exactly who is asking for help and what the chances are that they are
simply religious fanatics who will immediately turn on us.

Hitler may be the last dictator we toppled that actually worked out
well for us or the country he ruled and this was Europe, a place we
understand.