On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:
- show quoted text -
Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?
.........

IMO not near the worth of loss of life

On 10/10/15 9:54 AM, Tim wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:
- show quoted text -
Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?
........

IMO not near the worth of loss of life



The "worth" to who, exactly? What's the monetary value of a crew
member's life to the shipping company? How much does it have to pay out
of pocket?

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/10/15 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:29:03 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I know what you're saying Greg. But my thought is that it's possible that it was bad enough but turned REALLY bad before they knew what was happening. Just my uneducated thought.

I suppose bravado goes a long way but I am not sure it would have me
steering into a storm when there was an easy way to avoid it.

===

There's more information he

http://gcaptain.com/collision-course-with-a-hurricane-how-doomed-el-faro-met-its-end/#.VhgL0SssycM

This will be discussed by the professionals for a while. At this time
I don't think it's known exactly when they lost power. It may be
possible that they caught a really bad break by losing power before
they could reroute.

In addition to a possible desire to save fuel, there may have been
port considerations. Some harbors have limited dockage space and
tightly scheduled slip assignments. It could be very expensive if you
miss your slot and have to wait for a new one. Don't know if that's
an issue in San Juan or not.

Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?


Surely you are not alluding to a corporate climate in which saving lives
and not losing a ship are less important than an in$urance claim? Why,
that sort of thinking is *so* un'Merican.

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:40:11 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:29:03 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I know what you're saying Greg. But my thought is that it's possible that it was bad enough but turned REALLY bad before they knew what was happening. Just my uneducated thought.

I suppose bravado goes a long way but I am not sure it would have me
steering into a storm when there was an easy way to avoid it.

===

There's more information he

http://gcaptain.com/collision-course-with-a-hurricane-how-doomed-el-faro-met-its-end/#.VhgL0SssycM

This will be discussed by the professionals for a while. At this time
I don't think it's known exactly when they lost power. It may be
possible that they caught a really bad break by losing power before
they could reroute.

In addition to a possible desire to save fuel, there may have been
port considerations. Some harbors have limited dockage space and
tightly scheduled slip assignments. It could be very expensive if you
miss your slot and have to wait for a new one. Don't know if that's
an issue in San Juan or not.

Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?

===

Conspiracy theories are always fun to kick around even when they are a
bit improbable. When you factor in the reputational risk to the
company, the asset loss, and all of the crew and cargo liabilities,
it's unlikely they could profit in any way. The captain always has
ultimate responsibility for the safety of crew, cargo and ship. In
the end it will go down as a bad decision on his part no matter what
might have motivated the risk taking.

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew

You're nuts.

On 10/10/15 12:59 PM, Boating All Out wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew

You're nuts.



Greg, sadly, believes that *money* is the only real motivator.

On 10/10/2015 10:36 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/10/15 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:29:03 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I know what you're saying Greg. But my thought is that it's possible that it was bad enough but turned REALLY bad before they knew what was happening. Just my uneducated thought.

I suppose bravado goes a long way but I am not sure it would have me
steering into a storm when there was an easy way to avoid it.

===

There's more information he

http://gcaptain.com/collision-course-with-a-hurricane-how-doomed-el-faro-met-its-end/#.VhgL0SssycM

This will be discussed by the professionals for a while. At this time
I don't think it's known exactly when they lost power. It may be
possible that they caught a really bad break by losing power before
they could reroute.

In addition to a possible desire to save fuel, there may have been
port considerations. Some harbors have limited dockage space and
tightly scheduled slip assignments. It could be very expensive if you
miss your slot and have to wait for a new one. Don't know if that's
an issue in San Juan or not.

Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?


Surely you are not alluding to a corporate climate in which saving lives
and not losing a ship are less important than an in$urance claim? Why,
that sort of thinking is *so* un'Merican.

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew



The final decision (and it's outcome) is the responsibility of the
ship's captain under maritime law:

"The captain is ultimately responsible, under the law, for aspects of
operation such as the safe navigation of the ship, its cleanliness and
seaworthiness, safe handling of all cargo, management of all personnel,
inventory of ship's cash and stores,and maintaining the ship's
certificates and documentation."

One of the (presumed) lost is a local from Kingston, MA. He was a
marine engineer and graduated from Mass Maritime in 1996. He also
attended and graduated from the same high school as my older son who
knew him well.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 10:56:37 -0400,
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:40:11 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:29:03 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I know what you're saying Greg. But my thought is that it's possible that it was bad enough but turned REALLY bad before they knew what was happening. Just my uneducated thought.

I suppose bravado goes a long way but I am not sure it would have me
steering into a storm when there was an easy way to avoid it.

===

There's more information he

http://gcaptain.com/collision-course-with-a-hurricane-how-doomed-el-faro-met-its-end/#.VhgL0SssycM

This will be discussed by the professionals for a while. At this time
I don't think it's known exactly when they lost power. It may be
possible that they caught a really bad break by losing power before
they could reroute.

In addition to a possible desire to save fuel, there may have been
port considerations. Some harbors have limited dockage space and
tightly scheduled slip assignments. It could be very expensive if you
miss your slot and have to wait for a new one. Don't know if that's
an issue in San Juan or not.

Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?

===

Conspiracy theories are always fun to kick around even when they are a
bit improbable. When you factor in the reputational risk to the
company, the asset loss, and all of the crew and cargo liabilities,
it's unlikely they could profit in any way. The captain always has
ultimate responsibility for the safety of crew, cargo and ship. In
the end it will go down as a bad decision on his part no matter what
might have motivated the risk taking.

I wasn't talking about them intentionally hazarding their vessel, I
was just curious whether it was insured for more than it was worth.
TV20 had a guy on who was on that ship for a while and he said it was
a rust bucket and they were just painting over the rust.. The cooks
area regularly flooded and other things. The loss of power might have
been a simple mechanical failure, having nothing to do with the storm,
just at the worst possible time.

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 11:59:26 -0500, Boating All Out
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew

You're nuts.

Make a point or shut your pie hole

What part of that was wrong?

On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 13:57:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/10/2015 10:36 AM, wrote:
On Sat, 10 Oct 2015 09:49:39 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 10/10/15 9:40 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:58:21 -0400,
wrote:

On Fri, 09 Oct 2015 14:29:03 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 9 Oct 2015 09:44:27 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

I know what you're saying Greg. But my thought is that it's possible that it was bad enough but turned REALLY bad before they knew what was happening. Just my uneducated thought.

I suppose bravado goes a long way but I am not sure it would have me
steering into a storm when there was an easy way to avoid it.

===

There's more information he

http://gcaptain.com/collision-course-with-a-hurricane-how-doomed-el-faro-met-its-end/#.VhgL0SssycM

This will be discussed by the professionals for a while. At this time
I don't think it's known exactly when they lost power. It may be
possible that they caught a really bad break by losing power before
they could reroute.

In addition to a possible desire to save fuel, there may have been
port considerations. Some harbors have limited dockage space and
tightly scheduled slip assignments. It could be very expensive if you
miss your slot and have to wait for a new one. Don't know if that's
an issue in San Juan or not.

Not to go all "Harry" on you but it is still just money.
How much did losing the ship cost:?

Did the company actually make more on the insurance than that old rust
bucket was worth?


Surely you are not alluding to a corporate climate in which saving lives
and not losing a ship are less important than an in$urance claim? Why,
that sort of thinking is *so* un'Merican.

The fact still remains that the final decision was up to the captain
and the crew.
They had a simple bail out option of sailing west around the storm
but, as Wayne pointed out, they may have had a problem of when dockage
was going to be available in San Juan. Ships are not making any money
when they are sitting at anchor outside a port and I assume that loss
trickles down to the lowliest oiler in the engine room.
I am sure the decision to press on was made by the majority of the
crew



The final decision (and it's outcome) is the responsibility of the
ship's captain under maritime law:

"The captain is ultimately responsible, under the law, for aspects of
operation such as the safe navigation of the ship, its cleanliness and
seaworthiness, safe handling of all cargo, management of all personnel,
inventory of ship's cash and stores,and maintaining the ship's
certificates and documentation."

One of the (presumed) lost is a local from Kingston, MA. He was a
marine engineer and graduated from Mass Maritime in 1996. He also
attended and graduated from the same high school as my older son who
knew him well.


Four people from the ship are local (Lee County Florida)