If this weren't so sad...
 

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 9:50:21 PM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

It would take one hell of "a" missile to take out a modern aircraft
carrier.

It would never get close with a Phlanx Gun on the carrier.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 8:08:20 PM UTC-4, True North wrote:

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

Those three in Halifax are ****ing junk you idiot.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/15 3:55 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:28:26 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I simply don't believe the U.S. military has the capability to protect
our homeland or even its own resources against the sorts of
non-traditional adversaries we face today. Money blown on carriers would
be better spent on the training and placement of intel forces.


The fact still remains that there no better tool to project force than
a carrier battle group.
Whether we should be projecting that force is open to conjecture but
as long as we are, we need the tool..
Personally I have no problem leaving all of those folks in Southeast
Europe, South Asia and the middle east, to kill each other

I bet if the 6th fleet sailed a carrier group into the eastern Med to
prop up your favorite country, you would like the carriers a bit
better.



There you go again. I don't like or dislike carriers. I simply think the
billions spent on building and running them would be better spent these
days on recruiting, training, and supporting intel resources.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

If this weren't so sad...
 

Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/9/15 3:55 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:28:26 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I simply don't believe the U.S. military has the capability to protect
our homeland or even its own resources against the sorts of
non-traditional adversaries we face today. Money blown on carriers would
be better spent on the training and placement of intel forces.


The fact still remains that there no better tool to project force than
a carrier battle group.
Whether we should be projecting that force is open to conjecture but
as long as we are, we need the tool..
Personally I have no problem leaving all of those folks in Southeast
Europe, South Asia and the middle east, to kill each other

I bet if the 6th fleet sailed a carrier group into the eastern Med to
prop up your favorite country, you would like the carriers a bit
better.



There you go again. I don't like or dislike carriers. I simply think the
billions spent on building and running them would be better spent these
days on recruiting, training, and supporting intel resources.


And what are you going to do with that Intel?

If this weren't so sad...
 

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/8/2015 11:58 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.



The US military system was called SOSUS. The stationary, land based
SOSUS systems have been phased out in favor of a ship and sub mounted
towed array system that can be used anywhere. It's a passive system and
compares noise signatures to a library of signatures contained it it's
computer system. It can detect and identify a vessel by name, it's
location, speed, course, etc., and like other systems the data is
networked via high speed communication links to many ships.

I was assigned to a project group in the Navy that had the first
operational towed array system installed. At the time it was called
"Interim Towed Array Surveillance System" (ITASS) and the first ship to
receive the equipment was the USS Van Voorhis, followed by two other DE's
of the same class. This was back in 1970. The system has evolved
and has been improved and is now standard equipment on most Navy combat vessels and subs.

It's one of several methods for detecting and locating surface ships and
submarines. There are others currently deployed and being developed.
Blue/Green laser technology continues to be explored for sub detection
and communication purposes.

I think the SOSUS system is still available. Just a standby status.

If this weren't so sad...
 

wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:46:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


We've done a fair job since 9/11 2001. That's going on 14 years. We've
had "attacks" like the Boston Marathon bombing but they are
individuals acting alone and not part of an organized Al-Qaeda type
attack.

Money is not "blown" on carriers, despite your objections to them. Until
something else better comes along the carrier task force is
the backbone of our naval surface strength.

I have a hunch that you really have little idea how they operate, how
they are networked to other resources, what the defense systems are
(some are classified of course) and other particulars. I suspect you
would be impressed with the technologies involved and the
professionalism and training of the men and women that man these ships.
It's a far cry from the Navy I served in.


I bet Harry also doesn't understand that a carrier is also a pretty
good sized hospital and has an electrical plant large enough to power
essential services for a small city. The battle group also has a lot
of manpower to render aid and a very good fleet of helicopters to get
that aid out across the countryside.
As I said earlier, it is an excellent platform for humanitarian aid
but that needs to be in a safe part of the world, not where they seem
to need it most these days.

I would be happy to leave most of the Middle East alone. Keep a group or
two off the areas where ships and pirates meet, and use pirates as training
dummies. Let the Middle East pretty much alone to kill each other. Their
choice. Attack outside their realm and we eliminate a city or 3.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/2015 5:22 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/9/15 3:55 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:28:26 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I simply don't believe the U.S. military has the capability to protect
our homeland or even its own resources against the sorts of
non-traditional adversaries we face today. Money blown on carriers would
be better spent on the training and placement of intel forces.


The fact still remains that there no better tool to project force than
a carrier battle group.
Whether we should be projecting that force is open to conjecture but
as long as we are, we need the tool..
Personally I have no problem leaving all of those folks in Southeast
Europe, South Asia and the middle east, to kill each other

I bet if the 6th fleet sailed a carrier group into the eastern Med to
prop up your favorite country, you would like the carriers a bit
better.



There you go again. I don't like or dislike carriers. I simply think the
billions spent on building and running them would be better spent these
days on recruiting, training, and supporting intel resources.


And what are you going to do with that Intel?


Exactly. All brains and no brawn.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/15 5:07 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 16:46:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


We've done a fair job since 9/11 2001. That's going on 14 years. We've
had "attacks" like the Boston Marathon bombing but they are
individuals acting alone and not part of an organized Al-Qaeda type
attack.

Money is not "blown" on carriers, despite your objections to them. Until
something else better comes along the carrier task force is
the backbone of our naval surface strength.

I have a hunch that you really have little idea how they operate, how
they are networked to other resources, what the defense systems are
(some are classified of course) and other particulars. I suspect you
would be impressed with the technologies involved and the
professionalism and training of the men and women that man these ships.
It's a far cry from the Navy I served in.


I bet Harry also doesn't understand that a carrier is also a pretty
good sized hospital and has an electrical plant large enough to power
essential services for a small city. The battle group also has a lot
of manpower to render aid and a very good fleet of helicopters to get
that aid out across the countryside.
As I said earlier, it is an excellent platform for humanitarian aid
but that needs to be in a safe part of the world, not where they seem
to need it most these days.



None of which has anything to do with the fact that carriers are targets.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/2015 5:22 PM, Califbill wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/8/2015 11:58 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.



The US military system was called SOSUS. The stationary, land based
SOSUS systems have been phased out in favor of a ship and sub mounted
towed array system that can be used anywhere. It's a passive system and
compares noise signatures to a library of signatures contained it it's
computer system. It can detect and identify a vessel by name, it's
location, speed, course, etc., and like other systems the data is
networked via high speed communication links to many ships.

I was assigned to a project group in the Navy that had the first
operational towed array system installed. At the time it was called
"Interim Towed Array Surveillance System" (ITASS) and the first ship to
receive the equipment was the USS Van Voorhis, followed by two other DE's
of the same class. This was back in 1970. The system has evolved
and has been improved and is now standard equipment on most Navy combat vessels and subs.

It's one of several methods for detecting and locating surface ships and
submarines. There are others currently deployed and being developed.
Blue/Green laser technology continues to be explored for sub detection
and communication purposes.

I think the SOSUS system is still available. Just a standby status.



Some stations may be in a standby status but they are not being updated
or improved. I don't think the US military is operating any of them
anymore though. SOSUS was introduced back in 1949.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/15 5:22 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/9/15 3:55 PM, wrote:

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 15:28:26 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:


I simply don't believe the U.S. military has the capability to protect
our homeland or even its own resources against the sorts of
non-traditional adversaries we face today. Money blown on carriers would
be better spent on the training and placement of intel forces.


The fact still remains that there no better tool to project force than
a carrier battle group.
Whether we should be projecting that force is open to conjecture but
as long as we are, we need the tool..
Personally I have no problem leaving all of those folks in Southeast
Europe, South Asia and the middle east, to kill each other

I bet if the 6th fleet sailed a carrier group into the eastern Med to
prop up your favorite country, you would like the carriers a bit
better.



There you go again. I don't like or dislike carriers. I simply think the
billions spent on building and running them would be better spent these
days on recruiting, training, and supporting intel resources.


And what are you going to do with that Intel?


When necessary, act on it in a force-appropriate manner. The team that
took out bin Laden was land-based and acted upon intel that took years
to assemble.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.