If this weren't so sad...
 

"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 3/8/2015 8:39 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
True North wrote:
On Sunday, 8 March 2015 17:31:52 UTC-3, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called "Amphibious Assault
Ships," has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise, however. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years, saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be "little more
than slow-moving targets."

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Who gave Canada a submarine?

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

We will be buying huge aircraft carriers until some two bit terrorist group
takes one out with a missile.


It would take one hell of "a" missile to take out a modern aircraft carrier.

The navy used to say something similar about its battleships.
--
Sent from my iPhone 6+

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 6:45:04 PM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/8/15 8:56 PM, John H. wrote:
On 9 Mar 2015 00:39:06 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:

True North wrote:
On Sunday, 8 March 2015 17:31:52 UTC-3, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called "Amphibious Assault
Ships," has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise, however.. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years, saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be "little more
than slow-moving targets."

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Who gave Canada a submarine?

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

We will be buying huge aircraft carriers until some two bit terrorist group
takes one out with a missile.

Have you written your politicians with your whines?

Perhaps you could inform Don how to spell the name of your country.



You are the self-appointed usenet sheriff, Col Klink. You do it. You
prefer 'Murican? to 'merican?


--
Proud to be a Liberal.

Ah! Having your ass handed to you properly, eh Krause? One can tell when you're desperate to reclaim what little you have. You start insulting when you're backed into a corner. Krause the Klutz is a good handle for you.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/2015 1:58 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 16:28:57 -0400, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 3/8/15 4:13 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called “Amphibious Assault
Ships,� has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise, however. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years, saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be “little more
than slow-moving targets.�

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Only thing wrong with your account:

The American Task Force and the French sub were practicing war games as
they would in an actual sea battle. The American Task Force at one
point assumed the role as the "enemy" and the French sub's mission was
to attack and sink the carrier and other ships, which they successfully
simulated.

What's missing is that the American Task Force still provided
command/control intel for the French sub as a participating ally, even
though they simultaneously played the "enemy".

A more accurate test would be to have no communications allowed, no
sharing of command/control intel and to allow the American Task Force
to take offensive/defensive actions against the sub.



I don't think it is necessary to go through all that trouble to sink or
disable one of our oversized carriers. A "smart" missile with a nuclear
explosive would do it.

Aircraft carriers are there to project force against 3d world
countries. When Zumwalt was asked how long our carriers would last
against the Soviets he said "a couple days".

I will say, we have pretty good detection capability against subs but
that is not the only danger.

The Chinese have a truck mounted missile that could take out a carrier
from 2 thousand miles away. The opinion about how many the Aegis
screen could take down is mixed.


Unless nuclear, one, two or even several 500kg (explosive) missiles are
unlikely to sink an aircraft carrier. Damage? Sure. But permanently
disable or sink? Not likely.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/8/2015 11:58 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.



The US military system was called SOSUS. The stationary, land based
SOSUS systems have been phased out in favor of a ship and sub mounted
towed array system that can be used anywhere. It's a passive system and
compares noise signatures to a library of signatures contained it it's
computer system. It can detect and identify a vessel by name, it's
location, speed, course, etc., and like other systems the data is
networked via high speed communication links to many ships.

I was assigned to a project group in the Navy that had the first
operational towed array system installed. At the time it was called
"Interim Towed Array Surveillance System" (ITASS) and the first ship to
receive the equipment was the USS Van Voorhis, followed by two other
DE's of the same class. This was back in 1970. The system has evolved
and has been improved and is now standard equipment on most Navy combat
vessels and subs.

It's one of several methods for detecting and locating surface ships and
submarines. There are others currently deployed and being developed.
Blue/Green laser technology continues to be explored for sub detection
and communication purposes.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/9/2015 2:14 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 08 Mar 2015 23:58:39 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.

Those are by other subs. Certainly if there is a couple hunter killers
in the group, a foreign sub won't be getting close but the towed
arrays on the surface vessels are not as good (at least as far as we
know)
They are pretty close mouthed about sub detection capability.

I knew some submariners and they said there are only two kind of ship.
Subs and targets.
I know those rusty old tubs I was on had simply given up. We had state
of the art ASW torpedoes on the 02 deck but the procedure if we got
the "this is not a drill" was to manually enter the preset search
parameters, pull off the tompins and pull out the salt water plugs.
When the 02 deck went under, the fish would go kill the sub that sunk
us.


The towed array systems have become *very* good ... to the point where
the land based, SOSUS systems have been phased out. You can have more
of them, since they are installed on just about every Navy combat ship
and sub.

I belong to an organization of former SOSUS and Towed Array Navy types
and stay in touch with some of the people who were involved in the land
based systems and the ship based systems that have replaced
them. Specific capabilities remain classified and I wouldn't know
what the current systems are capable of however I know they are much
more advanced than the initial shipboard system I was involved with.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On 3/8/2015 9:45 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/8/15 8:56 PM, John H. wrote:
On 9 Mar 2015 00:39:06 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:

True North wrote:
On Sunday, 8 March 2015 17:31:52 UTC-3, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United
States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called "Amphibious
Assault
Ships," has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the
rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked
with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to
not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise,
however. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval
Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years,
saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be "little more
than slow-moving targets."

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Who gave Canada a submarine?

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

We will be buying huge aircraft carriers until some two bit terrorist
group
takes one out with a missile.

Have you written your politicians with your whines?

Perhaps you could inform Don how to spell the name of your country.



You are the self-appointed usenet sheriff, Col Klink. You do it. You
prefer 'Murican? to 'merican?


You must really hate America to speak of it as you do. Why don't you
emigrate to a socialist or communist country which seems to suit you
better. Good luck finding one who will accept a loud mouth tax evader
with lots of guns and ammunition.

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 23:54:53 -0700 (PDT), Tom Nofinger wrote:

On Sunday, March 8, 2015 at 6:45:04 PM UTC-7, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/8/15 8:56 PM, John H. wrote:
On 9 Mar 2015 00:39:06 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:

True North wrote:
On Sunday, 8 March 2015 17:31:52 UTC-3, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called "Amphibious Assault
Ships," has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise, however. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years, saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be "little more
than slow-moving targets."

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Who gave Canada a submarine?

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

We will be buying huge aircraft carriers until some two bit terrorist group
takes one out with a missile.

Have you written your politicians with your whines?

Perhaps you could inform Don how to spell the name of your country.



You are the self-appointed usenet sheriff, Col Klink. You do it. You
prefer 'Murican? to 'merican?


--
Proud to be a Liberal.

Ah! Having your ass handed to you properly, eh Krause? One can tell when you're desperate to reclaim what little you have. You start insulting when you're backed into a corner. Krause the Klutz is a good handle for you.

You're talking a heavy job there!
--

Guns don't cause problems. Gun owner
*behavior* causes problems.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 08:17:54 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 3/8/2015 9:45 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 3/8/15 8:56 PM, John H. wrote:
On 9 Mar 2015 00:39:06 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:

True North wrote:
On Sunday, 8 March 2015 17:31:52 UTC-3, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 3/8/2015 3:23 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
...it would be hilarious...

Lone French Submarine Destroys Myth Of US Naval Superiority

If you listened to the Admirality within the Pentagon, the United
States
Navy is one of the finest in the world. Our focus on the Aircraft
Carrier, split between 10 Supercarriers with four more under
construction, and 10 more lighter carriers, called "Amphibious
Assault
Ships," has given the US the largest carrier fleets in the world. In
fact, the US Navy has more carriers in active service than the
rest of
the world, and it is the lynchpin of any US Navy actions. The myth of
the American carrier invulnerability is such that it is taken for
granted in our collective psyche.

And a lone French Submarine, the SNA Saphir, just demonstrated how
vulnerable they are. In a training exercise, the Saphir was tasked
with
attacking U.S. Carrier Strike Group 12, led by the USS Theodore
Roosevelt, CVN-71, along with ballistic defensive warships and
anti-submarine warfare vessels. In a now redacted article, the French
Ministry of Defense described how the Saphir on its own managed to
not
only approach the Roosevelt, but defeat it in simulated combat.

What the French demonstrated should not come as a surprise,
however. As
the Canadian submarine HMCS Corner Brook demonstrated in 2007,
asymmetrical warfare is the Achilles heel for Aircraft carrier based
naval forces. The issue is so pronounced that the US Naval
Institute has
been arguing against this carrier-first fleet design for years,
saying
that in the modern combat environment, carriers could be "little more
than slow-moving targets."

http://tinyurl.com/m3e8r66


What isn't a surprise: the U.S. military wastes trillions with its
arrogance.


Who gave Canada a submarine?

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric
submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't
realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based
in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

We will be buying huge aircraft carriers until some two bit terrorist
group
takes one out with a missile.

Have you written your politicians with your whines?

Perhaps you could inform Don how to spell the name of your country.



You are the self-appointed usenet sheriff, Col Klink. You do it. You
prefer 'Murican? to 'merican?


You must really hate America to speak of it as you do. Why don't you
emigrate to a socialist or communist country which seems to suit you
better. Good luck finding one who will accept a loud mouth tax evader
with lots of guns and ammunition.

I wonder what kick it gives them to misspell the name of a country.
--

Guns don't cause problems. Gun owner
*behavior* causes problems.

If this weren't so sad...
 

On Mon, 09 Mar 2015 04:17:35 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 3/8/2015 11:58 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Sun, 8 Mar 2015 17:08:19 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

We used to read stories of our previous class of diesel electric submarines getting within torpedo range of 'merican carriers. Didn't realize the newer Upholder class did the same thing.

BTW ..it was four submarines we took off British hands. Three are based in Halifax in various stages of operational readiness.

===

Those guys are so good at submarine tracking and identification that
they probably knew they were coming 100 miles away. The propellor
and hull noise of every ship and sub is totally unique, just like a
finger print or DNA sample. There are world wide networks of
underwater microphones that track ships and subs everywhere. The
noise signature of every one is in a database.



The US military system was called SOSUS. The stationary, land based
SOSUS systems have been phased out in favor of a ship and sub mounted
towed array system that can be used anywhere. It's a passive system and
compares noise signatures to a library of signatures contained it it's
computer system. It can detect and identify a vessel by name, it's
location, speed, course, etc., and like other systems the data is
networked via high speed communication links to many ships.

I was assigned to a project group in the Navy that had the first
operational towed array system installed. At the time it was called
"Interim Towed Array Surveillance System" (ITASS) and the first ship to
receive the equipment was the USS Van Voorhis, followed by two other
DE's of the same class. This was back in 1970. The system has evolved
and has been improved and is now standard equipment on most Navy combat
vessels and subs.

It's one of several methods for detecting and locating surface ships and
submarines. There are others currently deployed and being developed.
Blue/Green laser technology continues to be explored for sub detection
and communication purposes.


Don't forget the P-3's and their replacements. My niece is now piloting 'test bed'
P-3's, and the stuff is so classified she won't even tell her dad what it's about.
--

Guns don't cause problems. Gun owner
*behavior* causes problems.