On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 20:18:01 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 1/29/15 8:03 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.


Gosh, I had no idea you were such an expert in ammo reloading and in
shooting prairie doggies.

Perhaps a bit of actual expertise might help you:

Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo?

*Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56
ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than
commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223
chambers, be unsafe to fire.*

The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though
the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs
on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may
be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military
M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have
the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat
area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally
designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223
chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the
military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification
chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000
psi or more.

The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as
that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR
manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled
".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased
accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability,
especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an
in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their
barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell
what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on
the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.

Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7

Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR

DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.

Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally
marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older
barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use
.223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56
chambers.

Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223
chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t)
models use .223 match chambers.

Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does
not mark their barrels.

Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber
dimensions are unknown.

Opinion: In general it is a bad idea to attempt to fire 5.56 rounds
(e.g., M193, M855) in .223 chambers, particularly with older rifles.


Fact: SAAMI specifically warns against the use of 5.56mm ammo in .223
chambers. The .223 SAAMI specification was originally made with bolt
rifles in mind.

For more see the SAAMI website ammo warning.


5.56 v. .223 Remington specification.

Fact: The different manufacturer's chamber types are listed at length
and in great detail at: The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.

http://tinyurl.com/lv7hep3

Perhaps a re-read of the thread will clue you in. It was humor.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 20:46:10 -0500, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 20:18:01 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/29/15 8:03 PM, Poquito Loco wrote:

For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.


Gosh, I had no idea you were such an expert in ammo reloading and in
shooting prairie doggies.

Perhaps a bit of actual expertise might help you:

Q. What is the difference between 5.56×45mm and .223 Remington ammo?

*Dimensionally, 5.56 and .223 ammo are identical, though military 5.56
ammo is typically loaded to higher pressures and velocities than
commercial ammo and may, in guns with extremely tight "match" .223
chambers, be unsafe to fire.*

The chambers for .223 and 5.56 weapons are not the same either. Though
the AR15 design provides an extremely strong action, high pressure signs
on the brass and primers, extraction failures and cycling problems may
be seen when firing hot 5.56 ammo in .223-chambered rifles. Military
M16s and AR15s from Colt, Bushmaster, FN, DPMS, and some others, have
the M16-spec chamber and should have no trouble firing hot 5.56 ammunition.

Military M16s have slightly more headspace and have a longer throat
area, compared to the SAAMI .223 chamber spec, which was originally
designed for bolt-action rifles. Commercial SAAMI-specification .223
chambers have a much shorter throat or leade and less freebore than the
military chamber. Shooting 5.56 Mil-Spec ammo in a SAAMI-specification
chamber can increase pressure dramatically, up to an additional 15,000
psi or more.

The military chamber is often referred to as a "5.56 NATO" chamber, as
that is what is usually stamped on military barrels. Some commercial AR
manufacturers use the tighter ".223" (i.e., SAAMI-spec and often labeled
".223" or ".223 Remington") chamber, which provides for increased
accuracy but, in self-loading rifles, less cycling reliability,
especially with hot-loaded military ammo. A few AR manufacturers use an
in-between chamber spec, such as the Wylde chamber. Many mis-mark their
barrels too, which further complicates things. You can generally tell
what sort of chamber you are dealing with by the markings, if any, on
the barrel, but always check with the manufacturer to be sure.

Typical Colt Mil-Spec-type markings: C MP 5.56 NATO 1/7

Typical Bushmaster markings: B MP 5.56 NATO 1/9 HBAR

DPMS marks their barrels ".223", though they actually have 5.56 chambers.

Olympic Arms marks their barrels with "556", with some additionally
marked "SS" or "SUM." This marking is used on all barrels, even older
barrels that used .223 chambers and current target models that also use
.223 chambers. Non-target barrels made since 2001 should have 5.56
chambers.

Armalite typically doesn't mark their barrels. A2 and A4 models had .223
chambers until mid-2001, and have used 5.56 chambers since. The (t)
models use .223 match chambers.

Rock River Arms uses the Wylde chamber specs on most rifles, and does
not mark their barrels.

Most other AR manufacturers' barrels are unmarked, and chamber
dimensions are unknown.

Opinion: In general it is a bad idea to attempt to fire 5.56 rounds
(e.g., M193, M855) in .223 chambers, particularly with older rifles.


Fact: SAAMI specifically warns against the use of 5.56mm ammo in .223
chambers. The .223 SAAMI specification was originally made with bolt
rifles in mind.

For more see the SAAMI website ammo warning.


5.56 v. .223 Remington specification.

Fact: The different manufacturer's chamber types are listed at length
and in great detail at: The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site.

http://tinyurl.com/lv7hep3

===

Nice rundown of various info. I'm shocked and appalled however that a
learned scholar like yourself, and a self proclaimed journalist, would
not credit your sources that you so freely quote.

Let me se if I can help.


https://www.google.com/#q=Dimensionally%2C+5.56+and+.223+ammo+are+identic al%2C+though+military+5.56++%3Eammo+is+typically+l oaded+to+higher+pressures+and+velocities+than++%3E commercial+ammo+and+may%2C+in+guns+with+extremely+ tight+%22match%22+.223++%3Echambers%2C+be+unsafe+t o+fire.

My goodness. I thought he'd written all that off the top of his head!
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.

On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:32:44 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5..56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

I'm not sure why a sport shooter that can safely shoot either round would seek out and only purchase .223.

On 1/30/15 11:06 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:32:44 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

I'm not sure why a sport shooter that can safely shoot either round would seek out and only purchase .223.



What's a 5.56 round going to do for me in casual target shooting?
Typically, but not always, the brass case, non-ferrous bullet .223
rounds are a few cents less expensive, probably because the demand is
higher and more are produced.

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 11:06 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:32:44 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem.. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

I'm not sure why a sport shooter that can safely shoot either round would seek out and only purchase .223.



What's a 5.56 round going to do for me in casual target shooting?
Typically, but not always, the brass case, non-ferrous bullet .223
rounds are a few cents less expensive, probably because the demand is
higher and more are produced.

It's kind of like putting regular gas in a sports car that is setup for high octane. 5.56's typical higher velocity can give you a slightly flatter trajectory. Besides, I'm not seeing any real difference in price when I buy, and you said you don't really keep up with the ammo market anyway.

My barrel's twist prefers the 62 grain bullets, so it's usually XM855 for me.

On 1/30/15 2:54 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 11:06 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:32:44 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223 and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for 50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass (military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in 5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

I'm not sure why a sport shooter that can safely shoot either round would seek out and only purchase .223.



What's a 5.56 round going to do for me in casual target shooting?
Typically, but not always, the brass case, non-ferrous bullet .223
rounds are a few cents less expensive, probably because the demand is
higher and more are produced.

It's kind of like putting regular gas in a sports car that is setup for high octane. 5.56's typical higher velocity can give you a slightly flatter trajectory. Besides, I'm not seeing any real difference in price when I buy, and you said you don't really keep up with the ammo market anyway.

My barrel's twist prefers the 62 grain bullets, so it's usually XM855 for me.


I'm still shooting the least expensive brass case non-ferrous bullet
ammo I can find, until I get my groups down to 1" at 100 yards. Then I
might try a more expensive ammo. No sense wasting $$$ on ammo that
outdoes my abilities. I'm at 1-1/2" to 1-1/4" at 100 yards, but mostly
at the 1-1/2 mark. That means I shot one five shot grouping at 1-1/4".

--
Proud to be a Liberal.

On 1/30/2015 3:01 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 2:54 PM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 11:11:43 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 11:06 AM, wrote:
On Friday, January 30, 2015 at 9:32:44 AM UTC-5, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/30/15 8:59 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 9:21:52 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
On Thursday, January 29, 2015 at 5:17:55 PM UTC-8, Someone Else
wrote:
Poquito Loco wrote:
For a new production AR style rifle the difference between 223
and 5.56 is very
similar to buying 12 large eggs versus buying a dozen large eggs.

I use Accurate Arms 2230 powder, a mid-range powder charge for
50 gr HP bullets, and
shoot that load in 5 different rifles accurately without a
problem. I use mixed brass
and don't sort headstamps. I make sure to separate range brass
(military vs
commercial) to ream military primer pockets to remove the crimp.

I won't bore you with details about cleaning, tumbling, case
length, and trimming
brass.


EDIT: A chronograph is the only thing that can tell the
difference between a 3100 fps
or 2900 fps bullet. Neither a target or prairie dog knows the
difference. A prairie
dog does know the difference between 223 and a 25-06 -- there
is less to pickup if
you use a 25-06.


Makes me want to run right out and get a Mini-14.
From what I've read, some barrels can't handle the pressure
of the 5.56.

I've shot both in a Bushmaster I had, my Steyer, and mini-14. no
problems in any of them.

I see no reason to buy an AR chanbered in .223. If you get it in
5.56, you can safely shoot both, and there's really no difference
in accuracy. Then just buy the ammo that meets your price and
perfomance needs.


I'm not sure why "sport" shooters who can shoot either .223 or 5.56
bother with the latter. My Colt, along with millions of other ARs,
handles either, but I don't buy 5.56. There are plenty of different
loads available for either.

I'm not sure why a sport shooter that can safely shoot either round
would seek out and only purchase .223.



What's a 5.56 round going to do for me in casual target shooting?
Typically, but not always, the brass case, non-ferrous bullet .223
rounds are a few cents less expensive, probably because the demand is
higher and more are produced.

It's kind of like putting regular gas in a sports car that is setup
for high octane. 5.56's typical higher velocity can give you a
slightly flatter trajectory. Besides, I'm not seeing any real
difference in price when I buy, and you said you don't really keep up
with the ammo market anyway.

My barrel's twist prefers the 62 grain bullets, so it's usually XM855
for me.


I'm still shooting the least expensive brass case non-ferrous bullet
ammo I can find, until I get my groups down to 1" at 100 yards. Then I
might try a more expensive ammo. No sense wasting $$$ on ammo that
outdoes my abilities. I'm at 1-1/2" to 1-1/4" at 100 yards, but mostly
at the 1-1/2 mark. That means I shot one five shot grouping at 1-1/4".

You're almost good enough to get that hawker job down at the arcade.

--

Respectfully submitted by Justan

Laugh of the day from Krause

"I'm not to blame anymore for the atmosphere in here.
I've been "born again" as a nice guy."