On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:32:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 7:18 PM, jps wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:09:17 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!” Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!” Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,”
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.”

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,” the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good reason”
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to
carry a gun,” he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.



Sad but true.

===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.


My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.



"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.

Okay, forget the gut feeling. What are the odds? Think past events
are going to support an equal number on both sides of that equation?

I'm thinkin' they support my original assumption that white folks are
going to prejudge black folks as threatening far more often than black
folks are going to conclude the same of whites.



And that assumption, without knowing the facts, is what contributes to
the perpetual problems of race relations. When the day comes that
perps and victims are no longer identified as black or white, but simply
by name and age we will be making the first solid steps to ending racism.

My, the same meme FoxNews has been spruiking. Calling out racism
makes me a racist?

I know the facts. Put a group of black men in Walmart open carrying
and watch the hair spring to attention. White guys with guns on their
hips or slung across backs might get a head shake.

You know the facts too, and you know I'm right.

On 1/21/15 9:11 PM, jps wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:32:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 7:18 PM, jps wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:09:17 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!” Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!” Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,”
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.”

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,” the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good reason”
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to
carry a gun,” he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.



Sad but true.

===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.


My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.



"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.

Okay, forget the gut feeling. What are the odds? Think past events
are going to support an equal number on both sides of that equation?

I'm thinkin' they support my original assumption that white folks are
going to prejudge black folks as threatening far more often than black
folks are going to conclude the same of whites.



And that assumption, without knowing the facts, is what contributes to
the perpetual problems of race relations. When the day comes that
perps and victims are no longer identified as black or white, but simply
by name and age we will be making the first solid steps to ending racism.

My, the same meme FoxNews has been spruiking. Calling out racism
makes me a racist?

I know the facts. Put a group of black men in Walmart open carrying
and watch the hair spring to attention. White guys with guns on their
hips or slung across backs might get a head shake.

You know the facts too, and you know I'm right.



Speaking of facts or misstatement of same, I'm hoping the mayor of Paris
proceeds with her intentions to sue Fox News for its deliberate slander
of her city.

From the NYT:

Apparently unmoved by the Fox News channel’s on-air apology to “the
people of France” for broadcasting the false claim that areas of Paris
are Muslim-ruled enclaves — or “no-go zones” outside the control of the
state — the city’s mayor announced Tuesday that she intended to take
legal action against the network.

In an interview with CNN and a subsequent Facebook update, Mayor Anne
Hidalgo said that the “very shocking, stupid” and “insulting remarks”
from Fox News anchors and guests, indicating that parts of her city were
as insecure as Iraq or Afghanistan, had so “damaged the reputation and
honor of Paris and Parisians” that she felt compelled “to go to court in
order to have these words removed.”

Such a civil suit wouldn't get far here, but French courts take libel
and slander seriously, and a properly executed suit would create a great
deal of trouble for Fox.


--
Proud to be a Liberal.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:26:20 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

From the NYT:

Apparently unmoved by the Fox News channel’s on-air apology to “the
people of France” for broadcasting the false claim that areas of Paris
are Muslim-ruled enclaves — or “no-go zones” outside the control of the
state — the city’s mayor announced Tuesday that she intended to take
legal action against the network.

===

Of course the fact that Parisians have been saying the same thing for
years is of no particular consequence I suppose.

Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 7:09 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 1/21/2015 4:18 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 4:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack
after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a
Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to
buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old
vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!� Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!� Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,�
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.�

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,� the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good
reason�
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally
permitted to
carry a gun,� he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.



Sad but true.

===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.


My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.



"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.



Well, of course. That's why I qualified the statement with my gut feeling.





Ah, but "gut" feels is a form of prejudice, stereotyping and, in some cases, racism.

Recent history teaches that if you are black, you are more likely to have a
bad outcome in these sorts of encounters.



History also tells us violent crime by blacks is way out of proportion to
their percent of the population.


Which has nothing to do with the reported incident.


Adds to the worry.

On 21 Jan 2015 23:31:30 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:

Poquito Loco wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 10:38:02 -0800, jps wrote:

The Hillsborough County Sheriff?s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff?s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff?s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

?He?s got a gun!? Foster reportedly exclaimed.

?I have a permit!? Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

?Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,?
McKinnon noted. ?We understand it?s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.?

?The Sheriff?s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,? the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should ?make sure there?s a good reason?
before tackling gun owners.

?Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to
carry a gun,? he pointed out.

Very funny.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.

Unnecessary bull****.

Why is that?

Ask him.
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:12:01 -0500, Keyser Söze wrote:

On 1/21/15 7:09 PM, Califbill wrote:
Keyser Söze wrote:
"Mr. Luddite" wrote:
On 1/21/2015 4:18 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 4:09 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack
after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a
Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to
buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old
vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!” Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!” Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,”
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.”

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,” the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good
reason”
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally
permitted to
carry a gun,” he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.



Sad but true.

===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.


My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.



"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.



Well, of course. That's why I qualified the statement with my gut feeling.





Ah, but "gut" feels is a form of prejudice, stereotyping and, in some cases, racism.

Recent history teaches that if you are black, you are more likely to have a
bad outcome in these sorts of encounters.



History also tells us violent crime by blacks is way out of proportion to
their percent of the population.


Which has nothing to do with the reported incident.

Much more than: "Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white."
--

Guns don't cause problems. The behavior
of certain gun owners causes problems.

On 1/21/2015 9:11 PM, jps wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 19:32:33 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 7:18 PM, jps wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:09:17 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!” Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!” Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,”
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.”

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,” the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good reason”
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to
carry a gun,” he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.



Sad but true.

===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.


My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.



"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.

Okay, forget the gut feeling. What are the odds? Think past events
are going to support an equal number on both sides of that equation?

I'm thinkin' they support my original assumption that white folks are
going to prejudge black folks as threatening far more often than black
folks are going to conclude the same of whites.



And that assumption, without knowing the facts, is what contributes to
the perpetual problems of race relations. When the day comes that
perps and victims are no longer identified as black or white, but simply
by name and age we will be making the first solid steps to ending racism.

My, the same meme FoxNews has been spruiking. Calling out racism
makes me a racist?

Do you have an issue with black correspondents calling Al Sharpton a racist?

I know the facts. Put a group of black men in Walmart open carrying
and watch the hair spring to attention. White guys with guns on their
hips or slung across backs might get a head shake.

You know the facts too, and you know I'm right.


We know the facts, we know you are wrong....

jps wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 16:09:17 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/21/2015 2:09 PM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/21/15 2:04 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 13:46:39 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

On 1/21/15 1:38 PM, jps wrote:
The Hillsborough County Sheriff’s Office has asked vigilantes to
please be careful about which gun owners they choose to attack after a
black concealed carry permit holder was wrongly assaulted at a Florida
Walmart.

According to the Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office, 62-year-old Clarence
Daniels was entering Walmart with his legally concealed firearm to buy
coffee creamer on Tuesday when he was spotted by 43-year-old vigilante
Michael Foster.

Foster, who is white, had observed Daniels conceal the weapon under
his coat before he came into the store. When Daniels crossed the
threshold, Foster tackled him and placed him in a chokehold,
Hillsborough Sheriff’s Office spokesperson Larry McKinnon explained.

“He’s got a gun!” Foster reportedly exclaimed.

“I have a permit!” Daniels repeatedly shouted back.

After a struggle, the men were separated. Deputies later arrived and
Foster was charged with battery.

“Unfortunately he tackled a guy that was a law-abiding citizen,”
McKinnon noted. “We understand it’s alarming for people to see other
people with guns, but Florida has a large population of concealed
weapons permit holders.”

“The Sheriff’s Office recommends that vigilante-inclined citizens
refrain from taking matters into their own hands, especially when an
incident is gun-related,” the Tampa Bay Times reported.

McKinnon said that vigilantes should “make sure there’s a good reason”
before tackling gun owners.

“Otherwise you might be confronting a guy that is legally permitted to
carry a gun,” he pointed out.


Concealed carry permits are cool, as long as you're white.


Sad but true.
===

Daniels certainly did not deserve to be assaulted but he did violate
one of the cardinal rules of concealed carry which is to keep your
weapon concealed at all times. Allowing someone else to see your
firearm can be considered "brandishing" under some circumstances.

My gut tells me that if Daniels were a white guy, the self-appointed
vigilante, Michael Foster, would have ignored the guy. I hope but I
doubt Daniels gets some slammer time.


"Gut" feels are nothing but a prejudgement. You have no idea what
the guy would have done if the gun guy was white.
Okay, forget the gut feeling. What are the odds? Think past events
are going to support an equal number on both sides of that equation?

I'm thinkin' they support my original assumption that white folks are
going to prejudge black folks as threatening far more often than black
folks are going to conclude the same of whites.
And both would be statistically correct.

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:03:27 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:26:20 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

From the NYT:

Apparently unmoved by the Fox News channel’s on-air apology to “the
people of France” for broadcasting the false claim that areas of Paris
are Muslim-ruled enclaves — or “no-go zones” outside the control of the
state — the city’s mayor announced Tuesday that she intended to take
legal action against the network.

===

Of course the fact that Parisians have been saying the same thing for
years is of no particular consequence I suppose.

And a certain percentage of Americans in every city would say the
same, doesn't make it true.

On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 08:45:38 -0800, jps wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 23:03:27 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Jan 2015 21:26:20 -0500, Keyser Söze
wrote:

From the NYT:

Apparently unmoved by the Fox News channel’s on-air apology to “the
people of France” for broadcasting the false claim that areas of Paris
are Muslim-ruled enclaves — or “no-go zones” outside the control of the
state — the city’s mayor announced Tuesday that she intended to take
legal action against the network.

===

Of course the fact that Parisians have been saying the same thing for
years is of no particular consequence I suppose.

And a certain percentage of Americans in every city would say the
same, doesn't make it true.

===

If you send me some plane tickets I'll be happy to go to Paris and do
some first hand investigation.