This is the broadest possible overview for those who are unfamiliar with how the motions of the Earth fit in with human timekeeping and although it is an injustice to those people who created the system we use today, the overview is much better than none at all. There is no stopping to differentiate between the original geocentric astronomers and their observations from the later heliocentric astronomers who worked off the idea that the Earth moves between Venus and Mars around the Sun so readers today don't concern themselves with the level of knowledge of any given era as this will be taken for granted in order to move the story along.

As the Earth moves through space in its circuit around the Sun,certain stars lying on or near the same plane as the Earth's orbital motion are temporarily lost behind the Sun's glare. The older astronomers marked the passage as the Sun through the constellations (hence birth signs) but for purposes of this story it is better to consider the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

The anchor for the Lat/Long system originally was based on the appearance of one particular star as the orbital motion of the Earth placed the star just far enough to one side of the Sun one morning, That star was the brightest one in the celestial arena known as Sirius and can be seen on the bottom left of the image -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

Unbeknownst to themselves, what the Egyptians were actually doing was defining the Earth's orbital position around the Sun using the seasonal appearance of a star as a gauge and the number of rotations that fit inside an orbital circuit, in this case 1461 rotations for 4 orbital circuits which breaks down into 365 1/4 rotations to one orbital circuit.

This is the founding principle where one 24 hour day keeps in step with one rotation of the Earth and the basis of the Lat/Long system along with the reason why the extra day and rotation is introduced in order to keep the Earth's position in space fixed by the number of rotations,at least to the nearest rotation.

The next step is the process which equates the 'average' 24 hour day with 'constant' rotation insofar as the average 24 hour day substitutes for constant rotation through 360 degrees in that period.

Apologies,the correct image is reproduced.


On Saturday, January 3, 2015 8:14:28 AM UTC-8, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
This is the broadest possible overview for those who are unfamiliar with how the motions of the Earth fit in with human timekeeping and although it is an injustice to those people who created the system we use today, the overview is much better than none at all. There is no stopping to differentiate between the original geocentric astronomers and their observations from the later heliocentric astronomers who worked off the idea that the Earth moves between Venus and Mars around the Sun so readers today don't concern themselves with the level of knowledge of any given era as this will be taken for granted in order to move the story along.

As the Earth moves through space in its circuit around the Sun,certain stars lying on or near the same plane as the Earth's orbital motion are temporarily lost behind the Sun's glare. The older astronomers marked the passage as the Sun through the constellations (hence birth signs) but for purposes of this story it is better to consider the apparent motion of the stars behind the Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

The anchor for the Lat/Long system originally was based on the appearance of one particular star as the orbital motion of the Earth placed the star just far enough to one side of the Sun one morning, That star was the brightest one in the celestial arena known as Sirius and can be seen on the bottom left of the image -


http://www.gautschy.ch/~rita/archast...liacsirius.JPG




".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360 days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year" Canopus Decree 238 BC

wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 08:14:26 -0800 (PST),
wrote:

This is the broadest possible overview for those who are unfamiliar with
how the motions of the Earth fit in with human timekeeping and although
it is an injustice to those people who created the system we use today,
the overview is much better than none at all. There is no stopping to
differentiate between the original geocentric astronomers and their
observations from the later heliocentric astronomers who worked off the
idea that the Earth moves between Venus and Mars around the Sun so
readers today don't concern themselves with the level of knowledge of
any given era as this will be taken for granted in order to move the story along.

As the Earth moves through space in its circuit around the Sun,certain
stars lying on or near the same plane as the Earth's orbital motion are
temporarily lost behind the Sun's glare. The older astronomers marked
the passage as the Sun through the constellations (hence birth signs)
but for purposes of this story it is better to consider the apparent
motion of the stars behind the Sun due to the orbital motion of the Earth -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

The anchor for the Lat/Long system originally was based on the
appearance of one particular star as the orbital motion of the Earth
placed the star just far enough to one side of the Sun one morning, That
star was the brightest one in the celestial arena known as Sirius and
can be seen on the bottom left of the image -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

".. on account of the procession of the rising of Sirius by one day in
the course of 4 years,.. therefore it shall be, that the year of 360
days and the 5 days added to their end, so one day shall be from this
day after every 4 years added to the 5 epagomenae before the new year"
Canopus Decree 238 BC

Unbeknownst to themselves, what the Egyptians were actually doing was
defining the Earth's orbital position around the Sun using the seasonal
appearance of a star as a gauge and the number of rotations that fit
inside an orbital circuit, in this case 1461 rotations for 4 orbital
circuits which breaks down into 365 1/4 rotations to one orbital circuit.

This is the founding principle where one 24 hour day keeps in step with
one rotation of the Earth and the basis of the Lat/Long system along
with the reason why the extra day and rotation is introduced in order to
keep the Earth's position in space fixed by the number of rotations,at
least to the nearest rotation.

The next step is the process which equates the 'average' 24 hour day
with 'constant' rotation insofar as the average 24 hour day substitutes
for constant rotation through 360 degrees in that period.






I am reacquainting myself with celestial mechanics as I am playing
with my new sextant.

I inherited an airplane sextant and only tried to play with it once. Has a
disk that a pencil lead marks to get an average of the horizon in a moving
airplane. Is missing the degree wheel I think.

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any time from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any time
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:35:33 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any time
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

What you may take for granted in a joking way would have been a serious issue at one stage in history -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_...saster_of_1707

The connection between the Lat/Long system along with timekeeping and how it meshes with planetary daily and orbital dynamics has never been explained properly hence this thread.

Anyone with the confidence of a skipper would have no problem so far with the explanation but we are sailing into stormy conceptual waters soon before returning to calmer waters of clear and proper perspectives.

On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:51:32 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:35:33 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any
time
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

What you may take for granted in a joking way would have been a serious issue at one stage in history -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_...saster_of_1707

The connection between the Lat/Long system along with timekeeping and how it meshes with planetary daily and orbital dynamics has never been explained properly hence this thread.

Anyone with the confidence of a skipper would have no problem so far with the explanation but we are sailing into stormy conceptual waters soon before returning to calmer waters of clear and proper perspectives.

===

As a self proclaimed expert in these matters, I assume you have also
read "Longtitude" by Daba Sobel and "The American Practical Navigator"
by Nathaniel Bowditch. There is a wealth of information in both.

On 1/4/2015 11:51 AM, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:35:33 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any t
ime
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

What you may take for granted in a joking way would have been a serious issue at one stage in history -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_...saster_of_1707

The connection between the Lat/Long system along with timekeeping and how it meshes with planetary daily and orbital dynamics has never been explained properly hence this thread.

Anyone with the confidence of a skipper would have no problem so far with the explanation but we are sailing into stormy conceptual waters soon before returning to calmer waters of clear and proper perspectives.


I am guessing most of this is way beyond my pay grade...

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 10:12:13 AM UTC-8, KC wrote:
On 1/4/2015 11:51 AM, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:35:33 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any t
ime
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

What you may take for granted in a joking way would have been a serious issue at one stage in history -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_...saster_of_1707

The connection between the Lat/Long system along with timekeeping and how it meshes with planetary daily and orbital dynamics has never been explained properly hence this thread.

Anyone with the confidence of a skipper would have no problem so far with the explanation but we are sailing into stormy conceptual waters soon before returning to calmer waters of clear and proper perspectives.


I am guessing most of this is way beyond my pay grade...

Absolutely not. The only assumption I make is that people are interested in how the planetary daily and orbital cycles are the basis for timekeeping such as defining the Earth's orbital position in space by the appearance of a single star and the number of times the planet turns within an orbital circuit.

I don't mind the lighthearted poking about imaginary lines however the foundations of navigation using timekeeping developed along a specific path and involves key observations ,some of which were made in antiquity.

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 9:55:04 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 08:51:32 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

On Sunday, January 4, 2015 8:35:33 AM UTC-8, Wayne. B wrote:
On Sun, 4 Jan 2015 07:06:49 -0800 (PST), Gerald Kelleher
wrote:

Having established the original method by which humans came to understand how the appearance of a star defined the Earth's orbital position around the Sun and the number of times it turns within the confines of that orbital circuit using an extra day and rotation over a 4 year period and 4 orbital circuits, the use of the average day and modern timekeeping comes into view. No better person than the great John Harrison to explain the principles -

"The application of a Timekeeper to this discovery is founded upon the
following principles: the earth's surface is divided into 360 equal parts (by imaginary lines drawn from North to South) which are called Degrees of Longitude; and its daily revolution Eastward round its own axis is performed in 24 hours; consequently in that period, each of those imaginary lines or degrees, becomes successively opposite to the Sun (which makes the noon or precise middle of the day at each of those degrees and it must follow, that from the time any one of those lines passes the Sun, till the next passes, must be just four minutes, for 24 hours being divided by 360 will give that quantity; so that for every degree of Longitude we sail Westward, it will be noon with us four minutes the later, and for every degree Eastward four minutes the sooner, and so on in proportion for any greater or less quantity. Now, the exact time of the day at the place where we are, can be ascertained by well known and easy observations of the Sun if visible for a few minutes at any
time
from his being ten degrees high until within an hour of noon, or from an hour after noon until he is only 10 degrees high in the afternoon; if therefore, at any time when such observation is made, a Timekeeper tells us at the same moment what o'clock it is at the place we sailed from, our Longitude is
clearly discovered." John Harrison

So here we have the 24 hour day linked to the passage of the Sun across the meridian each day where one rotation and one day always keep in step and especially February 29th which represents the older astronomical achievement that pins the Earth to its orbital position.

The next explanation is intricate but if readers can follow the principles so far that anchor the 24 hour day to rotation there is little that can go wrong understanding the next step which ties the Lat/Long system to the 24 hour AM/PM system.

===

Good grief, we've been dealing with imaginary boats on this group for
years. Now we have to deal with imaginary lines also? I've seen
those lines and they are just as real as Harry's boats.

What you may take for granted in a joking way would have been a serious issue at one stage in history -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scilly_...saster_of_1707

The connection between the Lat/Long system along with timekeeping and how it meshes with planetary daily and orbital dynamics has never been explained properly hence this thread.

Anyone with the confidence of a skipper would have no problem so far with the explanation but we are sailing into stormy conceptual waters soon before returning to calmer waters of clear and proper perspectives.

===

As a self proclaimed expert in these matters, I assume you have also
read "Longtitude" by Daba Sobel and "The American Practical Navigator"
by Nathaniel Bowditch. There is a wealth of information in both.

In this case, anyone who wishes to follow the narrative must also reason from observations made possible by 21st century tools such as imaging and graphics.

It is crucial that the founding principle of timekeeping where an extra day and rotation is added after four 365 cycles corresponding to 4 orbital circuits of the Earth around the Sun is understood thoroughly but I personally don't envisage any problem with that.

The first appearance of Sirius (heliacal rising) just far enough to one side of the Sun to be seen one morning is a line-of-sight observation as the Earth moves around the Sun and the star is periodically lost behind its glare -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeQwYrfmvoQ

http://www.gautschy.ch/~rita/archast...liacsirius.JPG

A teacher should,by right, should be capable of answering a student's question as to why February 29th as both a day and as a rotation is required much less navigators who rely on the Lat/Long system as an extension of planetary dynamics and timekeeping.

I suspect many are new to this reasoning so every incentive to give it more consideration.