On Friday, January 2, 2015 10:44:43 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.

Maybe thinking about the green-tipped steel core penetrator rounds, also know as M855? The indoor range near me doesn't allow them. The outdoor range I belong to doesn't care.

On 1/2/15 10:44 PM, wrote:
On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.


Do you think your experiment in bullet disassembly fairly duplicates
what happens when a high speed steel round strikes an indoor range
backstop in terms of sparks? I don't know. Or maybe steel bullets
fragment more dangerously than non-ferrous bullets?

I have seen vids of barrels sawn in half lengthwise after heavy use of
steel versus lead bullets, and the barrels that shot steel showed much
heavier wear.

As for steel versus brass versus aluminum cartridge cases, I can only
guess the steel cases, being harder, cause more wear to the internals of
the firearm, but that shouldn't be an issue for the range. When I was
shooting 9mm, I bought a lot of aluminum-cased ammo and never had a
problem with it. It cycled fine in my semi-autos.

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 11:14:24 AM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 10:53:37 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:30 -0500, Poquito Loco
wrote:


Yup. Can't use the Tula stuff at my range

Why not?

They don't allow bullets with steel therein. Sparks. That's their
story, and they're sticking to it.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition (Same factory makes Tula and Wolf)


Steel-jacketed bullets[edit]
In addition to using steel casing, certain types of Wolf rifle cartridges use steel-jacketed bullets, which are often copper-plated and cosmetically similar to standard copper-jacketed bullets. The copper exterior of the bullet is approximately .005 inch thick, with an underlying steel jacket of about 1/32 inch thick. This type of ammunition is labeled "bimetal". Indoor shooting ranges, which use backstops often constructed of steel, have accordingly widely prohibited steel-jacketed and bimetal ammunition to prevent shooters from damaging their backstops (as well as steel to steel contact from the round causing sparks, which in just the right environment could ignite unburnt powder residue in the air).

On 1/3/2015 7:06 AM, Keyser Söze wrote:
On 1/2/15 10:44 PM, wrote:
On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there
for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.


Do you think your experiment in bullet disassembly fairly duplicates
what happens when a high speed steel round strikes an indoor range
backstop in terms of sparks? I don't know. Or maybe steel bullets
fragment more dangerously than non-ferrous bullets?

I doubt seriously that he thinks any of that.
What do you think indoor range back stops are typically comprised of?

I have seen vids of barrels sawn in half lengthwise after heavy use of
steel versus lead bullets, and the barrels that shot steel showed much
heavier wear.

That's obvious to the most casual observer.


As for steel versus brass versus aluminum cartridge cases, I can only
guess the steel cases, being harder, cause more wear to the internals of
the firearm, but that shouldn't be an issue for the range. When I was
shooting 9mm, I bought a lot of aluminum-cased ammo and never had a
problem with it. It cycled fine in my semi-autos.

What specific "internals" are you guessing about? Do you think how the
internals are made and what they are made of factor into your guesstimates?

I am thinking of buying a gun and since you are the ranking expert in
firearms, I'd like to pick your brain on the subject. I hope you don't
mind. ;-)


--

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 22:44:36 -0500, wrote:

On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.

It's not the case that's the problem, it's the bullet. If a magnet
sticks, it's not allowed. The one and only box of Tula 9mm I bought
did not pass the magnet test. And, the way the range guy new I was
shooting bad stuff was when he saw sparks as rounds hit the floor. He
hadn't checked my ammo before I went to my lane, as they usually do,
and I didn't know any better.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 22:44:36 -0500, wrote:

On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.

The range I'm speaking of is indoor. My SIL shoots at an outdoor
range, and they don't give a **** - like the honey badger.

On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 04:29:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 11:14:24 AM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 10:53:37 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:30 -0500, Poquito Loco
wrote:


Yup. Can't use the Tula stuff at my range

Why not?

They don't allow bullets with steel therein. Sparks. That's their
story, and they're sticking to it.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition (Same factory makes Tula and Wolf)


Steel-jacketed bullets[edit]
In addition to using steel casing, certain types of Wolf rifle cartridges use steel-jacketed bullets, which are often copper-plated and cosmetically similar to standard copper-jacketed bullets. The copper exterior of the bullet is approximately .005 inch thick, with an underlying steel jacket of about 1/32 inch thick. This type of ammunition is labeled "bimetal". Indoor shooting ranges, which use backstops often constructed of steel, have accordingly widely prohibited steel-jacketed and bimetal ammunition to prevent shooters from damaging their backstops (as well as steel to steel contact from the round causing sparks, which in just the right environment could ignite unburnt powder residue in the air).

Thank you, Dilbir.

On Saturday, January 3, 2015 9:03:14 AM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 04:29:08 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Thursday, January 1, 2015 11:14:24 AM UTC-5, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 10:53:37 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2015 07:39:30 -0500, Poquito Loco
wrote:


Yup. Can't use the Tula stuff at my range

Why not?

They don't allow bullets with steel therein. Sparks. That's their
story, and they're sticking to it.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Ammunition (Same factory makes Tula and Wolf)


Steel-jacketed bullets[edit]
In addition to using steel casing, certain types of Wolf rifle cartridges use steel-jacketed bullets, which are often copper-plated and cosmetically similar to standard copper-jacketed bullets. The copper exterior of the bullet is approximately .005 inch thick, with an underlying steel jacket of about 1/32 inch thick. This type of ammunition is labeled "bimetal". Indoor shooting ranges, which use backstops often constructed of steel, have accordingly widely prohibited steel-jacketed and bimetal ammunition to prevent shooters from damaging their backstops (as well as steel to steel contact from the round causing sparks, which in just the right environment could ignite unburnt powder residue in the air).

Thank you, Dilbir.

Dilbir? You can call me Jack.

I agree with the outdoor range not caring. Mine doesn't either. I have a 600 acre farm. Where anything legal goes!

On 1/3/2015 8:56 AM, Poquito Loco wrote:
On Fri, 02 Jan 2015 22:44:36 -0500, wrote:

On 2 Jan 2015 17:25:25 GMT, Keyser Söze wrote:


Might have been cabelas...but it expired. There's wolf gold out there for
27 or 28 cents...brass and non steel bullets...as good as the 55 grain
federal. Not Russian wolf.

I just pulled a Tula 9mm round apart. The jacket is some ferrous metal
but it is pretty soft and I got no sparks with a Dremel tool when I
cut the jacket open. The core seems to be lead.
The case was Berdan primed and full of some disk type powder.
I can see that this might wear a bore faster than regular gilding
metal but I am not sure how much that would actually be.
I see no issue with "sparks" or other things that might make it more
dangerous in a range, inside or out.

I have never heard them say a thing at our range (outside) and I see a
lot of those OD steel cases laying around.

The range I'm speaking of is indoor. My SIL shoots at an outdoor
range, and they don't give a **** - like the honey badger.


This whole sparks down range thing because of residual powder in the air
is got me thinking... if there is enought powder down range, how much is
in the air at the firing line where there are lots of sparks in the air?