On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 10:53:33 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

One thing interesting about this test is that the research vessel
used, the R/V Rachel Carson, was designed by Roger Long, a former
contributor to rec.boats.cruising - Roger is still active on some
other boating forums and is presently cruising south for the winter on
his sailboat.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2014/october/the-fine-art-of-anchoring.asp

There are lots of caveats with a test like this, some of which were
noted at the end of the article:

---------------------------------
But there were some things the tests couldn't measure. For example, a
straight-line pull test can't predict how well an anchor will reset
during a wind shift. The tests also can't tell the ultimate holding
power of a wellset anchor that's subject to dynamic loads, such as
when wind and waves act on a boat. Finally, the results hold for just
this one bottom. But there are so many different types of bottoms that
testing in them all would be an overwhelming undertaking.

No anchor test will ever manage to be complete, and despite all the
caveats, the process was a commendable attempt to conduct consistent
and comparable straight-line holding power tests in a specific bottom.
While the testing wasn't perfect and won't begin to satisfy everyone,
it succeeded in adding to the limited body of knowledge that exists
about anchoring and to confirm that anchoring remains as much fine art
as hard science.
-----------------------------------

The biggest issue for me is that all of the testing was done in a soft
mud bottom. That's fine for the Solomons area of Chesapeake Bay but
the most important thing for us is an anchor that sets well in many
different kinds of conditions like sand, grass, loose rock, etc. We
have been using Spade and Rocna anchors for over 10 years, over many
thousands of miles of cruising, and have had excellent results.


Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.

Most charts have information on them concerning the composition
of the bottom but, even so, the bottom conditions are only
charted infrequently and not very densely. The art of using
a lead with a cup/wax on the business end is virtually forgotten
and it's the rare sailor seen using one.

I use a variety of anchors among which my 20-pound Danforth
Deepsets are probably the best all-around anchors for holding
strength in one direction. But, using a single Danforth is not
the greatest setup during a wind or tide current shift. It
doesn't always reset properly.

My 20-pound CQR resets more reliably but often has difficulty
setting in the first place in certain types of bottoms.

My 25 pound Herreschoff fisherman anchor is great in rocks
but terrible in soft muddy conditions.

Two 20-pound Danforth Deepsets set out Bahamian style can't
be beat for reliable holding once well set. This system
negates wind and tidal shifts and the anchors don't *break*
out because the pull is always from a small number of degrees
deviation due to the angle of the rodes.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

--
Sir Gregory

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:05:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

===

I disagree but your mileage may vary. Over the last 45 years we have
tried almost every type of anchor known to mankind, and in a lot of
different boats and conditions. After reading a lot of positive
reviews we purchased a 45 lb Spade for our last boat, and it was just
an incredibly reliable anchor that almost always set on the first try
and never, ever dragged or broke out no matter what happened.

Remembering that success, we purchased a 120 pound Spade for our
present boat, a high windage trawler weighing 70,000 pounds. It was
a great anchor also, but the weight was almost too much for our
windlass to handle under some conditions. When we decided to replace
it with something lighter, Spade anchors had become difficult to find
and Glenn Ashmore was no longer in the business of importing them. The
closest thing we could find was a 90 pound Rocna, and after 3 full
seasons with that, it has also performed very well although sometimes
slightly slower to set than the big Spade. In my opinion both the
Rocna and Spade are excellent anchors and well worth the money, cheap
insurance I believe.

In article ,
, Wayne.B says...

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:05:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

===

I disagree but your mileage may vary. Over the last 45 years we have
tried almost every type of anchor known to mankind, and in a lot of
different boats and conditions. After reading a lot of positive
reviews we purchased a 45 lb Spade for our last boat, and it was just
an incredibly reliable anchor that almost always set on the first try
and never, ever dragged or broke out no matter what happened.

Remembering that success, we purchased a 120 pound Spade for our
present boat, a high windage trawler weighing 70,000 pounds. It was
a great anchor also, but the weight was almost too much for our
windlass to handle under some conditions. When we decided to replace
it with something lighter, Spade anchors had become difficult to find
and Glenn Ashmore was no longer in the business of importing them. The
closest thing we could find was a 90 pound Rocna, and after 3 full
seasons with that, it has also performed very well although sometimes
slightly slower to set than the big Spade. In my opinion both the
Rocna and Spade are excellent anchors and well worth the money, cheap
insurance I believe.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating mags,
websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among the best.
I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they are quite
dear!

--
Duncan.

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:

SNIPPED

Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.


That is about the first sensible thing the Craptain has posted; and that
is something I thought I would never write.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.


That I cannot agree with. Understanding of how anchors 'work' has
developed over the years, as have manufacturing techniques.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating
mags, websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among
the best. I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they
are quite dear!


Sailing in NW Scotland and points further north, anchoring is the norm
for me. For my last boat (Nicholson 32) I got one of the first Rocna's
to be imported into the UK. I found it to be a significantly more
reliable than the CQR (15Kg both) and, contrary to Duncan McCormack's
experiences, set very quickly. It held in windy situations when I was
quite worried. When I changed boats last year (Rustler 36 now) I got a
Rocna 20Kg before I took the boat out.

Tony H

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:16:59 +0000, Tony H wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:

SNIPPED

Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.


That is about the first sensible thing the Craptain has posted; and that
is something I thought I would never write.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.


That I cannot agree with. Understanding of how anchors 'work' has
developed over the years, as have manufacturing techniques.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating
mags, websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among
the best. I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they
are quite dear!


Sailing in NW Scotland and points further north, anchoring is the norm
for me. For my last boat (Nicholson 32) I got one of the first Rocna's
to be imported into the UK. I found it to be a significantly more
reliable than the CQR (15Kg both) and, contrary to Duncan McCormack's
experiences, set very quickly. It held in windy situations when I was
quite worried. When I changed boats last year (Rustler 36 now) I got a
Rocna 20Kg before I took the boat out.


I'm afraid I just do not understand those sailors who
willingly place all their eggs in one basket. I don't
see why a total reliance on one anchor is anything but
folly. Sooner or later such a practice will come back
and bite the sailor right square in his gullible arse.

Let me ask all those who rely on one anchor, in other
than a *lunch hook* situation, why?

When I see any sailor relying on one anchor, especially
when overnighting, I say to myself - "That's stupid and
irresponsible." It's stupid because two anchors work
better than one and it's irresponsible because the
stupidity endangers the vessels downwind of the one
where the sailor sleeps the night away on one hook
oblivious to the one anchor dragging and the vessel
potentially running afoul of another vessel.

That being said, how about tandem anchor tests that
might wake some oblivious sailors up to the fact that
two is better than one and how the two should be set
and what combinations in what conditions work the best.

Testing a single anchor tells me those doing the testing
simply have a product to hawk, the publicity of which
takes precedence over safe and sound seamanship.

--
Sir Gregory

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:40:15 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:16:59 +0000, Tony H wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:

SNIPPED

Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.


That is about the first sensible thing the Craptain has posted; and that
is something I thought I would never write.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.


That I cannot agree with. Understanding of how anchors 'work' has
developed over the years, as have manufacturing techniques.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating
mags, websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among
the best. I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they
are quite dear!


Sailing in NW Scotland and points further north, anchoring is the norm
for me. For my last boat (Nicholson 32) I got one of the first Rocna's
to be imported into the UK. I found it to be a significantly more
reliable than the CQR (15Kg both) and, contrary to Duncan McCormack's
experiences, set very quickly. It held in windy situations when I was
quite worried. When I changed boats last year (Rustler 36 now) I got a
Rocna 20Kg before I took the boat out.


I'm afraid I just do not understand those sailors who
willingly place all their eggs in one basket. I don't
see why a total reliance on one anchor is anything but
folly. Sooner or later such a practice will come back
and bite the sailor right square in his gullible arse.

Let me ask all those who rely on one anchor, in other
than a *lunch hook* situation, why?

When I see any sailor relying on one anchor, especially
when overnighting, I say to myself - "That's stupid and
irresponsible." It's stupid because two anchors work
better than one and it's irresponsible because the
stupidity endangers the vessels downwind of the one
where the sailor sleeps the night away on one hook
oblivious to the one anchor dragging and the vessel
potentially running afoul of another vessel.

That being said, how about tandem anchor tests that
might wake some oblivious sailors up to the fact that
two is better than one and how the two should be set
and what combinations in what conditions work the best.

Testing a single anchor tells me those doing the testing
simply have a product to hawk, the publicity of which
takes precedence over safe and sound seamanship.

===

Sir Gregory, I'm sure you'll be comforted to know that we do not rely
on just a single anchor. In fact, we have a whole bunch of them for
spares and special occassions. In addition to the big Rocna (our
primary), we also carry a Spade (from our old boat), A Bruce (which
came with our present boat), several Danforths of different sizes, and
a couple of small dinghy anchors.

Last winter down in the Carib we were in a situation at St Barts where
we wanted to keep the bow pointed into the prevailing swell, and the
stern facing the beach. I set a 12 lb Danforth from the stern on 150
ft of rode and took it towards the beach via dinghy. It was well set
in sand with an effective scope of over 12 to 1. It not only did an
admirable job of keeping the bow pointed into the swell but at certain
times of the day the wind would reverse and the entire boat would be
effectively anchored by the stern with the little Danforth. It never
dragged.

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 18:15:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 12:40:15 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

On Mon, 27 Oct 2014 09:16:59 +0000, Tony H wrote:

Sir Gregory Hall, Esq. wrote:

SNIPPED

Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.


That is about the first sensible thing the Craptain has posted; and that
is something I thought I would never write.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.


That I cannot agree with. Understanding of how anchors 'work' has
developed over the years, as have manufacturing techniques.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating
mags, websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among
the best. I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they
are quite dear!


Sailing in NW Scotland and points further north, anchoring is the norm
for me. For my last boat (Nicholson 32) I got one of the first Rocna's
to be imported into the UK. I found it to be a significantly more
reliable than the CQR (15Kg both) and, contrary to Duncan McCormack's
experiences, set very quickly. It held in windy situations when I was
quite worried. When I changed boats last year (Rustler 36 now) I got a
Rocna 20Kg before I took the boat out.


I'm afraid I just do not understand those sailors who
willingly place all their eggs in one basket. I don't
see why a total reliance on one anchor is anything but
folly. Sooner or later such a practice will come back
and bite the sailor right square in his gullible arse.

Let me ask all those who rely on one anchor, in other
than a *lunch hook* situation, why?

When I see any sailor relying on one anchor, especially
when overnighting, I say to myself - "That's stupid and
irresponsible." It's stupid because two anchors work
better than one and it's irresponsible because the
stupidity endangers the vessels downwind of the one
where the sailor sleeps the night away on one hook
oblivious to the one anchor dragging and the vessel
potentially running afoul of another vessel.

That being said, how about tandem anchor tests that
might wake some oblivious sailors up to the fact that
two is better than one and how the two should be set
and what combinations in what conditions work the best.

Testing a single anchor tells me those doing the testing
simply have a product to hawk, the publicity of which
takes precedence over safe and sound seamanship.

===

Sir Gregory, I'm sure you'll be comforted to know that we do not rely
on just a single anchor. In fact, we have a whole bunch of them for
spares and special occassions. In addition to the big Rocna (our
primary), we also carry a Spade (from our old boat), A Bruce (which
came with our present boat), several Danforths of different sizes, and
a couple of small dinghy anchors.

Last winter down in the Carib we were in a situation at St Barts where
we wanted to keep the bow pointed into the prevailing swell, and the
stern facing the beach. I set a 12 lb Danforth from the stern on 150
ft of rode and took it towards the beach via dinghy. It was well set
in sand with an effective scope of over 12 to 1. It not only did an
admirable job of keeping the bow pointed into the swell but at certain
times of the day the wind would reverse and the entire boat would be
effectively anchored by the stern with the little Danforth. It never
dragged.

That's good that you have a variety of anchors. Many power boats
rely solely on one small anchor hanging off a small bow roller.
Many are more for show than for go. I've seen fifty foot power
boats with four 350 HP outboards on the transom using a 25 pound
polished stainless steel plow and that's the only anchor they have
aboard the POS.

You should try something sometime. These fools who claim a 700
pound pull in a 15-knot wind are stupid. If the math and surface
area of the vessel produces 700 pounds of resistance it CANNOT
be assumed that that force is transmitted to the anchor itself.

In actuality it is not. Your 12-pound Danforth with that much
springy nylon rode probably only *felt* fifteen or twenty pounds
of force pulling on it as most of the force is *used up* by
the springiness of the rode and the cantenary stretching out
with resistance from the water itself. That's one reason NOT
to use all chain road, IMO, although chain cantenary can have a
similar effect though it lacks the necessary springiness of
a nylon rode when pulled taut.

I have done unsubjective tests with my boat in such winds
using one of my 20-pound Danforths well set with about
100 feet of nylon line and I have snorkeled down and gripped
the nylon rode just boatward from the approximately eight feet
of stainless steel anchor chain with both hands at arms length
and drawn my hands together. Overcoming the inertia of the
vessel was the hardest part. At no time once my hands were
close together and all the force going through my arms did
I ever feel more than about ten or fifteen pounds of actual
pull.

--
Sir Gregory