Interesting Anchor Test
 

On 10/24/2014 3:32 PM, Harrold wrote:
On 10/24/2014 3:06 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 2:36 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:30 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 2:13 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 1:52 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 10:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
One thing interesting about this test is that the research vessel
used, the R/V Rachel Carson, was designed by Roger Long, a former
contributor to rec.boats.cruising - Roger is still active on
some
other boating forums and is presently cruising south for the
winter on
his sailboat.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2014/october/the-fine-art-of-anchoring.asp










There are lots of caveats with a test like this, some of which
were
noted at the end of the article:

---------------------------------
But there were some things the tests couldn't measure. For
example, a
straight-line pull test can't predict how well an anchor will
reset
during a wind shift. The tests also can't tell the ultimate
holding
power of a wellset anchor that's subject to dynamic loads,
such as
when wind and waves act on a boat. Finally, the results hold for
just
this one bottom. But there are so many different types of bottoms
that
testing in them all would be an overwhelming undertaking.

No anchor test will ever manage to be complete, and despite all
the
caveats, the process was a commendable attempt to conduct
consistent
and comparable straight-line holding power tests in a specific
bottom.
While the testing wasn't perfect and won't begin to satisfy
everyone,
it succeeded in adding to the limited body of knowledge that
exists
about anchoring and to confirm that anchoring remains as much
fine
art
as hard science.
-----------------------------------

The biggest issue for me is that all of the testing was done in a
soft
mud bottom. That's fine for the Solomons area of Chesapeake Bay
but
the most important thing for us is an anchor that sets well in
many
different kinds of conditions like sand, grass, loose rock,
etc. We
have been using Spade and Rocna anchors for over 10 years, over
many
thousands of miles of cruising, and have had excellent results.




Interesting article.

I felt a little bit the novice when reading it though. During the
eight
years I had the Navigator I used the anchor *once* and on the GB
twice.
LOL.





I thought it was an hysterically funny post, typical of w'hine for
rec.boats. Mind you, I'm not making fun of the article, simply
w'hine's
reposting it here.



Right. How *dare* he submit a boating related post to rec.boats!


Nope...that's not it at all.



Oh. Was it hysterically funny because Wayne has more experience
underway than the rest of us combined?



No, though I have no particular reason to believe that claim. Maybe
your
old buddy, FlaJim has more experience underway than W'hine. Maybe
someone else does. Have you compared the resumes of the four or five
remaining boaters here?



Sorry. I was thinking recreational boating, not miles sailed on a Navy
or Coast Guard vessel. Yes, of the recreational boaters I'd say it's
safe to say Wayne has more miles under his keel than the rest of us
combined based on his posts and trip logs.


There could be a boater here who is as secretive about his "trip logs"
as your junior high buddy, FlaJim, is about his life.

Regardless, I wouldn't doubt that W'hine has more hours underway making
the same trips over and over than anyone else has, sort of like an
interstate trucker driving coast to coast, except he drives up and down
the ICW and to the islands in the Carib.

That statement alone should be enough to prove you have never been on
the water... like a mx track, even the same water, is never the same
twice...



Last year, a high school classmate of mine, a fellow whose prior boating
experience was plying the waters of LI Sound in a daysailer, remarried
(he was a widower) and he and his bride spent six months on a 40'
sailboat they chartered going to many ports of call in the Mediterranean
(and docking the boat and going inland), starting in Spain, with
landings in France, Italy, Albania (yikes!) and Greece, and a couple of
others I don't recall. That's a trip I'd love to take to put water under
my keel.


Tell us about your varied boating experiences.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 7:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 6:19 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 16:47:05 -0400, Harrold wrote:

On 10/24/2014 4:34 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 4:27 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 15:06:18 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Last year, a high school classmate of mine, a fellow whose prior boating
experience was plying the waters of LI Sound in a daysailer, remarried
(he was a widower) and he and his bride spent six months on a 40'
sailboat they chartered going to many ports of call in the Mediterranean
(and docking the boat and going inland), starting in Spain, with
landings in France, Italy, Albania (yikes!) and Greece, and a couple of
others I don't recall. That's a trip I'd love to take to put water under
my keel.

===

You should go, it's a wonderful trip.


Love to, but another two week Greek Isle cruise is more likely. Neither
my wife nor I are retired, and neither of us would want to live aboard a
small boat for six months, or even one month.


You aren't retired? What do you do for work?

===

He's an instructor for a self help group on internet etiquette and
another on how to win friends and influence people.


Indeed, but those are just tasks I handle as a volunteer. Fortunately,
the consulting work for which I get paid allows me to be a volunteer in
my spare time. Perhaps you should consider enrolling in my class on "How
Not To Be A Snarky Asshole On Usenet," W'hine. You obviously need
help.


You could possibly teach the course. You definitely know how to be a
snarky asshole.


I do. And you, of course, are expert in playing the uninformed fool.


Your liberal arts education does not seem to be treating you well. Two
bankruptcies? Maybe you should have take some courses that actually helped
you.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 7:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 5:09 PM, Califbill wrote:
Harrold wrote:
On 10/24/2014 3:06 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:52 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 2:36 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:30 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 2:13 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 2:11 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 1:52 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 12:44 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/24/2014 10:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
One thing interesting about this test is that the research vessel
used, the R/V Rachel Carson, was designed by Roger Long, a former
contributor to rec.boats.cruising - Roger is still active on some
other boating forums and is presently cruising south for the
winter on
his sailboat.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2014/october/the-fine-art-of-anchoring.asp









There are lots of caveats with a test like this, some of which
were
noted at the end of the article:

---------------------------------
But there were some things the tests couldn't measure. For
example, a
straight-line pull test can't predict how well an anchor will
reset
during a wind shift. The tests also can't tell the ultimate
holding
power of a wellset anchor that's subject to dynamic loads, such as
when wind and waves act on a boat. Finally, the results hold for
just
this one bottom. But there are so many different types of bottoms
that
testing in them all would be an overwhelming undertaking.

No anchor test will ever manage to be complete, and despite all
the
caveats, the process was a commendable attempt to conduct
consistent
and comparable straight-line holding power tests in a specific
bottom.
While the testing wasn't perfect and won't begin to satisfy
everyone,
it succeeded in adding to the limited body of knowledge that
exists
about anchoring and to confirm that anchoring remains as much fine
art
as hard science.
-----------------------------------

The biggest issue for me is that all of the testing was done in a
soft
mud bottom. That's fine for the Solomons area of Chesapeake Bay
but
the most important thing for us is an anchor that sets well in
many
different kinds of conditions like sand, grass, loose rock,
etc. We
have been using Spade and Rocna anchors for over 10 years, over
many
thousands of miles of cruising, and have had excellent results.




Interesting article.

I felt a little bit the novice when reading it though. During the
eight
years I had the Navigator I used the anchor *once* and on the GB
twice.
LOL.





I thought it was an hysterically funny post, typical of w'hine for
rec.boats. Mind you, I'm not making fun of the article, simply
w'hine's
reposting it here.



Right. How *dare* he submit a boating related post to rec.boats!


Nope...that's not it at all.



Oh. Was it hysterically funny because Wayne has more experience
underway than the rest of us combined?



No, though I have no particular reason to believe that claim. Maybe your
old buddy, FlaJim has more experience underway than W'hine. Maybe
someone else does. Have you compared the resumes of the four or five
remaining boaters here?



Sorry. I was thinking recreational boating, not miles sailed on a Navy
or Coast Guard vessel. Yes, of the recreational boaters I'd say it's
safe to say Wayne has more miles under his keel than the rest of us
combined based on his posts and trip logs.


There could be a boater here who is as secretive about his "trip logs"
as your junior high buddy, FlaJim, is about his life.

Regardless, I wouldn't doubt that W'hine has more hours underway making
the same trips over and over than anyone else has, sort of like an
interstate trucker driving coast to coast, except he drives up and down
the ICW and to the islands in the Carib.

Last year, a high school classmate of mine, a fellow whose prior boating
experience was plying the waters of LI Sound in a daysailer, remarried
(he was a widower) and he and his bride spent six months on a 40'
sailboat they chartered going to many ports of call in the Mediterranean
(and docking the boat and going inland), starting in Spain, with
landings in France, Italy, Albania (yikes!) and Greece, and a couple of
others I don't recall. That's a trip I'd love to take to put water under
my keel.


Tell us about your varied boating experiences.

Owing taxes, maybe he can not get a passport.



Are you Psychosnotty Ingerfool's missing birth parent?


More inane posts by you. I doubt people owing big income tax will be
allowed a passport. Owe child support, passports are withheld.



If you were shown a photo of your ass and a hole in the ground, you
wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. Really, Bilious, you should
limit your "play" here to your intellectual peers, such as the two
Scotties, Herring, and FlaJim. Anyone still capable of thinking and
fogging a mirror is way out of your league.

Have nice day.


Have a nice day. You really are not very smart. Probably an IQ in the Al
Gore range. 120 +- 5.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

On 10/24/2014 9:26 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 7:02 PM, Califbill wrote:
F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 6:19 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 16:47:05 -0400, Harrold wrote:

On 10/24/2014 4:34 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/24/14 4:27 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 15:06:18 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

Last year, a high school classmate of mine, a fellow whose prior boating
experience was plying the waters of LI Sound in a daysailer, remarried
(he was a widower) and he and his bride spent six months on a 40'
sailboat they chartered going to many ports of call in the Mediterranean
(and docking the boat and going inland), starting in Spain, with
landings in France, Italy, Albania (yikes!) and Greece, and a couple of
others I don't recall. That's a trip I'd love to take to put water under
my keel.

===

You should go, it's a wonderful trip.


Love to, but another two week Greek Isle cruise is more likely. Neither
my wife nor I are retired, and neither of us would want to live aboard a
small boat for six months, or even one month.


You aren't retired? What do you do for work?

===

He's an instructor for a self help group on internet etiquette and
another on how to win friends and influence people.


Indeed, but those are just tasks I handle as a volunteer. Fortunately,
the consulting work for which I get paid allows me to be a volunteer in
my spare time. Perhaps you should consider enrolling in my class on "How
Not To Be A Snarky Asshole On Usenet," W'hine. You obviously need
help.


You could possibly teach the course. You definitely know how to be a
snarky asshole.


I do. And you, of course, are expert in playing the uninformed fool.


Your liberal arts education does not seem to be treating you well. Two
bankruptcies? Maybe you should have take some courses that actually helped
you.

I thought Lib Arts taught basic math like making change and balancing a
checkbook.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 22:27:32 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:30:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Oh. Was it hysterically funny because Wayne has more experience
underway than the rest of us combined?



I do between 300 and 400 hours a year (motor time) but most of it is
within 10 miles of the house.

Most of my anchoring is something like this

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/short%20rode.jpg

Just holding me against the river bank while Ed, Auggie or whichever
dog I have at the time, takes a little run.

===

We chartered a 40 something canal boat in France a few years ago from
a big outfit called "Le Boat." Standard equipment provided for that
sort of tie up is a couple of steel spikes and a big hammer. I recall
they also provided a board to serve as a walkway to the river bank.

http://www.leboat.com

Interesting Anchor Test
 

Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 22:27:32 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 14:30:37 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Oh. Was it hysterically funny because Wayne has more experience
underway than the rest of us combined?



I do between 300 and 400 hours a year (motor time) but most of it is
within 10 miles of the house.

Most of my anchoring is something like this

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/short%20rode.jpg

Just holding me against the river bank while Ed, Auggie or whichever
dog I have at the time, takes a little run.

===

We chartered a 40 something canal boat in France a few years ago from
a big outfit called "Le Boat." Standard equipment provided for that
sort of tie up is a couple of steel spikes and a big hammer. I recall
they also provided a board to serve as a walkway to the river bank.

http://www.leboat.com

How about a separate thread on this trip. Sounds interesting. Likes and
dislikes, etc.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

On Sat, 25 Oct 2014 15:29:24 -0500, Califbill
wrote:

We chartered a 40 something canal boat in France a few years ago from
a big outfit called "Le Boat." Standard equipment provided for that
sort of tie up is a couple of steel spikes and a big hammer. I recall
they also provided a board to serve as a walkway to the river bank.

http://www.leboat.com

How about a separate thread on this trip. Sounds interesting. Likes and
dislikes, etc.

===

I think that I probably posted something about it at the time but I
wouldn't mind rehashing some of it.

"Le Boat" is a big operation and has charter boats all over Europe in
many different size ranges. Ours was about 44 ft and had two state
rooms, each with a private head and shower. Amidships was a good size
living and dining space. Topside there was an upper deck with a helm
station, quite a bit of seating, and a few folding umbrellas. We
chartered with another couple that we know well so there were 4 of us
on board and lots of room for everyone. Our boat was relatively new
and in excellent condition.

The boat was powered by a small single engine diesel and had electric
bow thrusters for maneuverability. One interesting feature of the
engine was that it had a built in generator for AC power. It only
worked at a certain RPM range and there was an indicator light to let
you know when it was at the right speed. The boat had a very
efficient diesel heating system powered by the 12 volt house
batteries. We were in the Burgundy wine region in late September so
we appreciated the heat in the morning.

Our itinerary was a one way route starting on the Saône River south of
Dijon in a little town called Gray, and we ended up a week later in a
town called Branges. More info he

http://www.leboat.com/vacations/destinations/france/burgundy/cruises/the-three-regions-cruise

This is a nice laid back cruise that goes through some interesting
towns and some very scenic country side. There are some locks to
negotiate, mostly self operated, but quite easy to master. My wife
speaks fluent French so we never had any language issues but there are
people who speak some English almost everywhere. It always helps of
course if you know some common words or phrases in advance.

We flew into Paris, rented a car at the airport and drove down to
Dijon for lunch - nice town with a lot of history and fine old
buildings. And of course there's always the mustard which is sold
just about everywhere. We stayed that night at an old country inn
outside of Gray. In the morning we dropped off the car and picked up
the boat.

Le Boat does a good job of providing you with all required charts and
equipment. For a navigation supplement I had a small lap top with a
USB GPS and a copy of Microsoft's European street mapping software. We
had WiFi connectivity just about everwhere.

Here's a YouTube video filmed on the Seille River near our final leg
into Branges:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tb5C-ON-MM

As you can see, this is not a trip for speed demoms. :-)

Interesting Anchor Test
 

On Fri, 24 Oct 2014 10:53:33 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

One thing interesting about this test is that the research vessel
used, the R/V Rachel Carson, was designed by Roger Long, a former
contributor to rec.boats.cruising - Roger is still active on some
other boating forums and is presently cruising south for the winter on
his sailboat.

http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/magazine/2014/october/the-fine-art-of-anchoring.asp

There are lots of caveats with a test like this, some of which were
noted at the end of the article:

---------------------------------
But there were some things the tests couldn't measure. For example, a
straight-line pull test can't predict how well an anchor will reset
during a wind shift. The tests also can't tell the ultimate holding
power of a wellset anchor that's subject to dynamic loads, such as
when wind and waves act on a boat. Finally, the results hold for just
this one bottom. But there are so many different types of bottoms that
testing in them all would be an overwhelming undertaking.

No anchor test will ever manage to be complete, and despite all the
caveats, the process was a commendable attempt to conduct consistent
and comparable straight-line holding power tests in a specific bottom.
While the testing wasn't perfect and won't begin to satisfy everyone,
it succeeded in adding to the limited body of knowledge that exists
about anchoring and to confirm that anchoring remains as much fine art
as hard science.
-----------------------------------

The biggest issue for me is that all of the testing was done in a soft
mud bottom. That's fine for the Solomons area of Chesapeake Bay but
the most important thing for us is an anchor that sets well in many
different kinds of conditions like sand, grass, loose rock, etc. We
have been using Spade and Rocna anchors for over 10 years, over many
thousands of miles of cruising, and have had excellent results.


Anchoring has so many variables that any one test run means very
little in the overall art of anchoring. And, it is an art. The
sailor (artist) must have a variety of anchors at his disposal
and know how, when and where to use each one. About the only
thing that makes the sailor proficient is experience, experience
and more experience in all manner of holding grounds.

Expecting one particular anchor to work well or even adequately
in all holding grounds is folly.

Most charts have information on them concerning the composition
of the bottom but, even so, the bottom conditions are only
charted infrequently and not very densely. The art of using
a lead with a cup/wax on the business end is virtually forgotten
and it's the rare sailor seen using one.

I use a variety of anchors among which my 20-pound Danforth
Deepsets are probably the best all-around anchors for holding
strength in one direction. But, using a single Danforth is not
the greatest setup during a wind or tide current shift. It
doesn't always reset properly.

My 20-pound CQR resets more reliably but often has difficulty
setting in the first place in certain types of bottoms.

My 25 pound Herreschoff fisherman anchor is great in rocks
but terrible in soft muddy conditions.

Two 20-pound Danforth Deepsets set out Bahamian style can't
be beat for reliable holding once well set. This system
negates wind and tidal shifts and the anchors don't *break*
out because the pull is always from a small number of degrees
deviation due to the angle of the rodes.

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

--
Sir Gregory

Interesting Anchor Test
 

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:05:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

===

I disagree but your mileage may vary. Over the last 45 years we have
tried almost every type of anchor known to mankind, and in a lot of
different boats and conditions. After reading a lot of positive
reviews we purchased a 45 lb Spade for our last boat, and it was just
an incredibly reliable anchor that almost always set on the first try
and never, ever dragged or broke out no matter what happened.

Remembering that success, we purchased a 120 pound Spade for our
present boat, a high windage trawler weighing 70,000 pounds. It was
a great anchor also, but the weight was almost too much for our
windlass to handle under some conditions. When we decided to replace
it with something lighter, Spade anchors had become difficult to find
and Glenn Ashmore was no longer in the business of importing them. The
closest thing we could find was a 90 pound Rocna, and after 3 full
seasons with that, it has also performed very well although sometimes
slightly slower to set than the big Spade. In my opinion both the
Rocna and Spade are excellent anchors and well worth the money, cheap
insurance I believe.

Interesting Anchor Test
 

In article ,
, Wayne.B says...

On Sun, 26 Oct 2014 10:05:37 -0400, "Sir Gregory Hall, Esq."
wrote:

Most of the recent anchors like the Rocna are a gimmick and
not as reliable as the older patent anchors. That people pay
such exorbitant prices for these dubious anchors is folly.

===

I disagree but your mileage may vary. Over the last 45 years we have
tried almost every type of anchor known to mankind, and in a lot of
different boats and conditions. After reading a lot of positive
reviews we purchased a 45 lb Spade for our last boat, and it was just
an incredibly reliable anchor that almost always set on the first try
and never, ever dragged or broke out no matter what happened.

Remembering that success, we purchased a 120 pound Spade for our
present boat, a high windage trawler weighing 70,000 pounds. It was
a great anchor also, but the weight was almost too much for our
windlass to handle under some conditions. When we decided to replace
it with something lighter, Spade anchors had become difficult to find
and Glenn Ashmore was no longer in the business of importing them. The
closest thing we could find was a 90 pound Rocna, and after 3 full
seasons with that, it has also performed very well although sometimes
slightly slower to set than the big Spade. In my opinion both the
Rocna and Spade are excellent anchors and well worth the money, cheap
insurance I believe.

To add to your experience, the Rocna and similar copies have been
thouroughly tested since their inception by many reputable boating mags,
websites and organisations. They continue to stand out among the best.
I'd love to try one vs my quite heavy Danforth - but they are quite
dear! :)

--
Duncan.