On 10/2/2014 5:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:42:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.

Harry is always decrying the destruction of the middle class, so he
should know the correct definition.



Yup. You're an intellectual cipher.

If you are so smart why aren't you rich?

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 4:14:59 PM UTC-4, F*O*A*D wrote:

I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the

definition of the "middle class."

Too bad no one was even talking to you, lardass.

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 6:53:29 PM UTC-4, F*O*A*D wrote:

I went to college and paid attention in stats 101 and 102.



I thought (and so did you ) that you went to Yale.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:53:29 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 6:44 PM, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:59:10 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 4:42 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.



The problem is defining the quality of life implicit in the term "middle
class." It is impossible to quantify with consensus.

For something you can't define, you certainly have no problem talking
about how badly they are doing.

You can't have it both ways.



You're the one using obsolete terms. I'm the one saying we need
different measuring sticks and descriptors. I went to college and paid
attention in stats 101 and 102.

===

Really? Say something in "Statistics" for us and then tell us what
it means.

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:59:10 -0400, Harrold wrote:

On 10/2/2014 5:28 PM, F*O*A*D wrote:
On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, Poco Loco wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:42:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 16:14:59 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."

Yes but if you are talking middle class you are implying quality of
life.

A stupid person can be poor making $100k and his next door neighbor
can be rich making 80.

Harry is always decrying the destruction of the middle class, so he
should know the correct definition.



Yup. You're an intellectual cipher.

If you are so smart why aren't you rich?

===

Precisely because he thought he was smarter than he actually was,
typical sociopath stuff.

On 10/2/2014 6:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 17:34:49 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 7:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are (HERE) really "middle class"... no matter how much they
insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

I think maybe you missed a NOT where I added a HERE in parenthesis above.

But, Where is "household income" on the income tax form.
Looking at my 1040 form;
Is it line 22, Total income?
Is it line 37 Adjusted Gross income?
Is it line 43 Taxable income?
Is it taxable income minus taxes? (Doubt That)

Line 22 Total income = 100%
Line 37 Adjusted Gross income = 63% of line 22
Line 43 Taxable income = 37% of line 22
taxable income minus taxes paid = 23% of line 22

Note: I'm self employed so taxes paid includes S.S. taxes.

Using Line 22 Total income, looks like I'm rich, at least this year.
Taxable income minus taxes paid,---- I'm living in poverty.

So, now I wonder, what does Median Household Income mean?

Mikek






Household income simply is the total amount of money brought into a home
from all sources by everyone in the home.

All "median income" means is the amount that divides the income
distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that
amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average)
is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group
by the number of units in that group.

That's from Wikipedia. It is correct. I doubt it gives you any useful
information. The median household income in the United States in 2012
was just under $31,000.


I think his point is what number do they use and how would they
actually get it? Most people do not have a clue what their after tax
income is. If they did they would be marching on Washington and their
state house.

If you note the difference between my total income and my taxable
income, a lot has come off before I pay taxes. I have the standard
deduction, but then I knock off about 37% more because we save. That
allows us to max out the deductions for two SEP's, an HSA, then there
are the health insurance and the deductible part of self employment tax
deduction.
The real killer is the Social Security and medicare tax. (15.2%?)

The sad part, say you get to keep 70%, with that you get to pay
gasoline tax, cellphones taxes, license plate taxes, cable/internet
taxes, and sales taxes, that's all I can think of now, but there are more.
Mikek

On 10/2/14 9:06 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 18:17:55 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:


If government got out of the way, we'd have Love Canals everywhere,
workers would be killed by the hundreds every day, workers would be even
more exploited than they are now, food inspections would cease, products
would be more dangerous, eight year old kids would be working in
factories, you'd see triple trailer truck rigs on our highways, et
cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Sorry, we're not going back to the lack of
rules of the 19th Century, despite what the Kochatollah Brothers want.


Bull****, the tort lawyers are a lot more of a threat than the
government but the real control is the customer.

One story on CNN about contaminated food costs more money in lost
sales for a company than some little fine that the government might
throw at them. The fine is deductible anyway.




Right, the real control is the consumer, because the consumer could
force the oil companies to clean up their messes.

On 10/2/14 9:32 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 6:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 17:34:49 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 7:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent
U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all
who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all
over the
country), are (HERE) really "middle class"... no matter how much they
insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

I think maybe you missed a NOT where I added a HERE in
parenthesis above.

But, Where is "household income" on the income tax form.
Looking at my 1040 form;
Is it line 22, Total income?
Is it line 37 Adjusted Gross income?
Is it line 43 Taxable income?
Is it taxable income minus taxes? (Doubt That)

Line 22 Total income = 100%
Line 37 Adjusted Gross income = 63% of line 22
Line 43 Taxable income = 37% of line 22
taxable income minus taxes paid = 23% of line 22

Note: I'm self employed so taxes paid includes S.S. taxes.

Using Line 22 Total income, looks like I'm rich, at least this year.
Taxable income minus taxes paid,---- I'm living in poverty.

So, now I wonder, what does Median Household Income mean?

Mikek






Household income simply is the total amount of money brought into a home
from all sources by everyone in the home.

All "median income" means is the amount that divides the income
distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that
amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average)
is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group
by the number of units in that group.

That's from Wikipedia. It is correct. I doubt it gives you any useful
information. The median household income in the United States in 2012
was just under $31,000.


I think his point is what number do they use and how would they
actually get it? Most people do not have a clue what their after tax
income is. If they did they would be marching on Washington and their
state house.

If you note the difference between my total income and my taxable
income, a lot has come off before I pay taxes. I have the standard
deduction, but then I knock off about 37% more because we save. That
allows us to max out the deductions for two SEP's, an HSA, then there
are the health insurance and the deductible part of self employment tax
deduction.
The real killer is the Social Security and medicare tax. (15.2%?)

The sad part, say you get to keep 70%, with that you get to pay
gasoline tax, cellphones taxes, license plate taxes, cable/internet
taxes, and sales taxes, that's all I can think of now, but there are more.
Mikek



You should move to Somalia. It is a perfect place for you and Greg.
The central government is weak, lawlessness is the rule, and taxes are
minimal. Tea Party/Libertarian paradise.

On 10/2/2014 7:54 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, October 2, 2014 4:14:59 PM UTC-4, F*O*A*D wrote:

I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the

definition of the "middle class."

Too bad no one was even talking to you, lardass.


Got that right... not interested in what harry read on google today...

On 10/3/14 12:08 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 21:55:35 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 9:32 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 6:18 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 17:34:49 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:

On 10/2/14 5:13 PM, amdx wrote:
On 10/2/2014 7:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent
U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all
who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all
over the
country), are (HERE) really "middle class"... no matter how much they
insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

I think maybe you missed a NOT where I added a HERE in
parenthesis above.

But, Where is "household income" on the income tax form.
Looking at my 1040 form;
Is it line 22, Total income?
Is it line 37 Adjusted Gross income?
Is it line 43 Taxable income?
Is it taxable income minus taxes? (Doubt That)

Line 22 Total income = 100%
Line 37 Adjusted Gross income = 63% of line 22
Line 43 Taxable income = 37% of line 22
taxable income minus taxes paid = 23% of line 22

Note: I'm self employed so taxes paid includes S.S. taxes.

Using Line 22 Total income, looks like I'm rich, at least this year.
Taxable income minus taxes paid,---- I'm living in poverty.

So, now I wonder, what does Median Household Income mean?

Mikek






Household income simply is the total amount of money brought into a home
from all sources by everyone in the home.

All "median income" means is the amount that divides the income
distribution into two equal groups, half having income above that
amount, and half having income below that amount. Mean income (average)
is the amount obtained by dividing the total aggregate income of a group
by the number of units in that group.

That's from Wikipedia. It is correct. I doubt it gives you any useful
information. The median household income in the United States in 2012
was just under $31,000.


I think his point is what number do they use and how would they
actually get it? Most people do not have a clue what their after tax
income is. If they did they would be marching on Washington and their
state house.

If you note the difference between my total income and my taxable
income, a lot has come off before I pay taxes. I have the standard
deduction, but then I knock off about 37% more because we save. That
allows us to max out the deductions for two SEP's, an HSA, then there
are the health insurance and the deductible part of self employment tax
deduction.
The real killer is the Social Security and medicare tax. (15.2%?)

The sad part, say you get to keep 70%, with that you get to pay
gasoline tax, cellphones taxes, license plate taxes, cable/internet
taxes, and sales taxes, that's all I can think of now, but there are more.
Mikek



You should move to Somalia. It is a perfect place for you and Greg.
The central government is weak, lawlessness is the rule, and taxes are
minimal. Tea Party/Libertarian paradise.

There goes that jerky knee again.
You big government people immediately leap from pushing back a little
on abusive regulation to Somalia.
.



Oh, so some government regulation is ok, but other government regulation
is abusive. Who gets to decide on which government regulations that
"regulate" corporations are abusive? The corporations?