One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...

On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...


I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my head.

On 10/2/2014 9:53 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...


I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my head.



Just wondering where the bar is. Several here have noted that they are
in the "middle class" but I am not sure we are all on the same page as
to what is "middle class". Most rich folks I have known claim to be
"middle class", but I am pretty sure their def is different than mine.
So for the sake of conversation, when I say "middle class" I am not
referring to folks who made 6 figures during their working years... I am
talking about folks who are making between say, 40-80 in general upper
middle class might get you up to 100,000 a year. Of course there is
always the exceptions like NYC, etc...

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 9:53:45 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:

I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my head.

That figures...since you are a dumbass.

On 10/2/2014 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:02:08 -0400, KC wrote:

On 10/2/2014 9:53 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...


I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my head.



Just wondering where the bar is. Several here have noted that they are
in the "middle class" but I am not sure we are all on the same page as
to what is "middle class". Most rich folks I have known claim to be
"middle class", but I am pretty sure their def is different than mine.
So for the sake of conversation, when I say "middle class" I am not
referring to folks who made 6 figures during their working years... I am
talking about folks who are making between say, 40-80 in general upper
middle class might get you up to 100,000 a year. Of course there is
always the exceptions like NYC, etc...

I whole lot depends on where you live.
Even the government civil service has established salary corridors
acknowledging that it costs more to live the same in different places.
A family that is middle class in Southwest Florida would be close to
the poverty line in Hawaii and they would be doing great in Tennessee.

I am also not sure I agree with Ruben's definition of middle class but
I really do not agree with much that asshole says anyway. He was one
of the architects, along with Summers and Greenspan, of Clinton's bank
deregulation that almost brought down the financial system in 2009 .

I think I would say middle class is the median wage, down 25% and up
50% weighted by the cost of living where you are.
By Ruben's measure the lower end of middle class is on public
assistance.


Yeah, I noted NYC, and I know Hawaii is a bit of an oddity but if you
live in NYC and make 130 and are still struggling to maintain a "middle
class" lifestyle, maybe you "sacrifice a little", move out of the city
20 miles, buy a car and live like a king...

On 10/2/14 12:25 PM, KC wrote:
On 10/2/2014 11:10 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 10:02:08 -0400, KC wrote:

On 10/2/2014 9:53 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/2/2014 8:50 AM, KC wrote:
One helpful yardstick to judge whether you're middle class: Median
household income was $51,017 in 2012, according to the most recent
U.S.
census data. Robert Reich, a professor of Public Policy at the
University of California-Berkeley and former Secretary of Labor, has
suggested the middle class be defined as households making 50 percent
higher and lower than the median, which would mean the average middle
class annual income is $25,500 to $76,500.


I am "guessing" the three most vocal "middle class" folks here (all
who
seem to own or boats worth a couple years income, and homes all
over the
country), are really "middle class"... no matter how much they insist
they are. Nothing wrong with being rich, but to try to assume you
struggle like "middle class" folks is comical...


I'll have to work on figuring out what you are saying. Went over my
head.



Just wondering where the bar is. Several here have noted that they are
in the "middle class" but I am not sure we are all on the same page as
to what is "middle class". Most rich folks I have known claim to be
"middle class", but I am pretty sure their def is different than mine.
So for the sake of conversation, when I say "middle class" I am not
referring to folks who made 6 figures during their working years... I am
talking about folks who are making between say, 40-80 in general upper
middle class might get you up to 100,000 a year. Of course there is
always the exceptions like NYC, etc...

I whole lot depends on where you live.
Even the government civil service has established salary corridors
acknowledging that it costs more to live the same in different places.
A family that is middle class in Southwest Florida would be close to
the poverty line in Hawaii and they would be doing great in Tennessee.

I am also not sure I agree with Ruben's definition of middle class but
I really do not agree with much that asshole says anyway. He was one
of the architects, along with Summers and Greenspan, of Clinton's bank
deregulation that almost brought down the financial system in 2009 .

I think I would say middle class is the median wage, down 25% and up
50% weighted by the cost of living where you are.
By Ruben's measure the lower end of middle class is on public
assistance.


Yeah, I noted NYC, and I know Hawaii is a bit of an oddity but if you
live in NYC and make 130 and are still struggling to maintain a "middle
class" lifestyle, maybe you "sacrifice a little", move out of the city
20 miles, buy a car and live like a king...


I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

On 10/2/2014 1:06 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:25:07 -0400, KC wrote:

On 10/2/2014 11:10 AM, wrote:

I whole lot depends on where you live.
Even the government civil service has established salary corridors
acknowledging that it costs more to live the same in different places.
A family that is middle class in Southwest Florida would be close to
the poverty line in Hawaii and they would be doing great in Tennessee.

I am also not sure I agree with Ruben's definition of middle class but
I really do not agree with much that asshole says anyway. He was one
of the architects, along with Summers and Greenspan, of Clinton's bank
deregulation that almost brought down the financial system in 2009 .

I think I would say middle class is the median wage, down 25% and up
50% weighted by the cost of living where you are.
By Ruben's measure the lower end of middle class is on public
assistance.


Yeah, I noted NYC, and I know Hawaii is a bit of an oddity but if you
live in NYC and make 130 and are still struggling to maintain a "middle
class" lifestyle, maybe you "sacrifice a little", move out of the city
20 miles, buy a car and live like a king...

I can't think of anywhere 20 miles from NYC that I would live.

They almost had me up state, around Kingston but it was very
lucrative job and I was looking at a real nice rural lot.
I lived across the river from Endicott for a while but I turned down
that job too.
I was also offered Atlanta, Raleigh, Charlotte and Tucson.


My ex wasn't interested in moving and if I was going to deal with
that, I decided I would go for sunshine. She is still there, I am
here.


Well, then it sounds like you wouldn't be the guy I am talking about
that lives in the city at 130 a year and struggles.... like I said
though, for "that guy", there is a lot of options without giving up your
job in the city...

On 10/2/14 2:42 PM, KC wrote:
On 10/2/2014 1:06 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 12:25:07 -0400, KC wrote:

On 10/2/2014 11:10 AM, wrote:

I whole lot depends on where you live.
Even the government civil service has established salary corridors
acknowledging that it costs more to live the same in different places.
A family that is middle class in Southwest Florida would be close to
the poverty line in Hawaii and they would be doing great in Tennessee.

I am also not sure I agree with Ruben's definition of middle class but
I really do not agree with much that asshole says anyway. He was one
of the architects, along with Summers and Greenspan, of Clinton's bank
deregulation that almost brought down the financial system in 2009 .

I think I would say middle class is the median wage, down 25% and up
50% weighted by the cost of living where you are.
By Ruben's measure the lower end of middle class is on public
assistance.


Yeah, I noted NYC, and I know Hawaii is a bit of an oddity but if you
live in NYC and make 130 and are still struggling to maintain a "middle
class" lifestyle, maybe you "sacrifice a little", move out of the city
20 miles, buy a car and live like a king...

I can't think of anywhere 20 miles from NYC that I would live.

They almost had me up state, around Kingston but it was very
lucrative job and I was looking at a real nice rural lot.
I lived across the river from Endicott for a while but I turned down
that job too.
I was also offered Atlanta, Raleigh, Charlotte and Tucson.


My ex wasn't interested in moving and if I was going to deal with
that, I decided I would go for sunshine. She is still there, I am
here.


Well, then it sounds like you wouldn't be the guy I am talking about
that lives in the city at 130 a year and struggles.... like I said
though, for "that guy", there is a lot of options without giving up your
job in the city...


Living in New York City on $130k a year these days would be tolerable if
you were single and didn't have any sort of fancy tastes. A large number
of people with that sort of income live across the river in New Jersey.

On Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:56:16 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:







I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate

meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily

definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical

differences.



Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.

A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.

Along the same lines, many people who are technically above the middle income, middle class line still consider themselves middle class. That's where they came from, and while they may be earning well above that imaginary mark, they are still living essentially the same as they used to. Yeah, they may not have to budget for that new set of tires, not worry about about a clothing budget, etc. But as their lifestyle naturally expanded in subtle ways, the money gets used up and after a while it doesn't feel like they are making that much more than they used to.

While we've certainly spent some money along the way, my wife has always kept us grounded. We've socked away money for retirement. When that happens, if the SS checks are still around, they'll just be icing on the cake.

On 10/2/14 3:56 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 02 Oct 2014 14:00:40 -0400, F*O*A*D wrote:



I think "middle class" is a tired-out descriptor with little accurate
meaning these days. Lower, middle, and upper income are more easily
definable and more easily adjustable for regional or geographical
differences.

Income is not really a very good measure of quality of life, even in
the same area.
A person who makes wise buying decisions and avoids a lot of
unnecessary debt will live a lot better than a person who pays too
much for things they don't really need and does it with borrowed
money.
It does not take long to get caught in the debt trap and then you are
carrying the bank around on your back.

A broker gave me some great advice around the bicentennial. He said,
if you can't afford to pay cash, how in the hell can you ever afford
to pay the same amount plus interest? (or words to that effect)
If you put off buying something and start paying for it right away,
you can pay cash.

That is particularly true if you were going to use a credit card.



I thought we were discussing demographics and psychographics, and the
definition of the "middle class."