On 11/11/2013 7:10 AM, BAR wrote:

In article , says...

On 11/10/2013 9:35 PM, BAR wrote:


Are you of the mistaken belief that single payer isn't the goal of those who inhabit the
Demoncrat party?.



Curious. Given the high cost of health care and the resulting high cost
of health insurance by private underwriters, what is it about a single
payer system that you don't like?



The high cost of health care is due to the government meddling and government regulaiton.

Government contorl over you body.

I would argue that the high cost of health care is due to not enough
government regulation of the health care industry. Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.


A single payer system could provide basic, affordable health care for
everyone. If you want "extra" care for things it doesn't cover, you
could buy a private, supplemental policy.

A single payer system can be used to coerce behavior that the government deems a requirement
before affording you the benefits of the single payer system.


Not sure what that means. If you are suggesting that the government
could require you to not smoke in order to get treatment for lung
cancer, maybe. I doubt that would happen, but I suppose it's possible.
It would be up to how the single payer system is written.

If it is single payer then why is there the notion of extra care that you can pay for out of
your pocket.


It's the system used in Switzerland and other European countries. The
single payer system provides a comprehensive base of health care for
everyone, paid for by tax revenues. If you are hospitalized and wish a
private room rather than a shared room, you pay extra, either yourself
or via a supplementary policy. Same with procedures and medicine. If
you desire something outside of generally accepted care, you or your
supplementary policy covers it. That's not any different from how
health insurance through a private insurer (Blue Cross, etc.) works now.

When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

On 11/11/2013 11:14 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.

You visit a clinic, and all clinics aren't created equal. Get it?

On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.

--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On 11/11/13, 11:54 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 11:14:31 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.

Medicare is NOT single payer and even then, there are plenty of
doctors who do not take medicare patients.


It's pretty much single payer with options, and the doctors at the
practice I visit are as money-grubbing as any selection of doctors. In
fact, years ago I asked my doc at the time what he thought about
Medicare and he said he was glad for it, because it brought the practice
patients they would not otherwise see and it generated more ca$h.

The current Medicare reimbursement for an hour of psychotherapy
treatment was about $90 last year, according to my wife, whose
professional assn publishes such data. The private insurance
reimbursement rate averages about the same.


--
Religion: together we can find the cure.

On 11/11/2013 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.
If you want the good doctors, you have to throw away the coverage you
paid for in taxes and pay out of pocket. (the UK system)



One thing I don't understand Greg ...

One of the most often repeated objections to a single payer system is to
point out the weaknesses or problems with it in some other country.

I'd consider those issues when drafting a single payer system unique to
USA needs, and not simply propose a copy of a 30 year old European model.

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.


Medicare is not single payer. If you have just Medicare, you will pay a
lot out of pocket. Why we pay for a supplemental plan. And lots of
doctors do not take Medicare patients. We ran in to this when our GP
retired. The doctors my wife wanted did not take Medicare patients.

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:11:59 -0600, Califbill wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.


Medicare is not single payer. If you have just Medicare, you will pay a
lot out of pocket. Why we pay for a supplemental plan. And lots of
doctors do not take Medicare patients. We ran in to this when our GP
retired. The doctors my wife wanted did not take Medicare patients.

My doctor will take Medicare patients, if the patient pays $1500 a year to the MDVIP Program.

http://www.mdvip.com/

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 22:38:29 -0500, wrote:

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 12:20:24 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

One thing I don't understand Greg ...

One of the most often repeated objections to a single payer system is to
point out the weaknesses or problems with it in some other country.

I'd consider those issues when drafting a single payer system unique to
USA needs, and not simply propose a copy of a 30 year old European model.


We keep getting the foreign systems thrown up on our face so it is
impossible to ignore them
I agree the US could come up with a single payer plan that would
duplicate the best insurance we can get now but they have not
explained how it would be any cheaper or how we would pay for it.

Do you think a regressive tax like the typical 18% VAT in all of these
other countries would fly here? How about a 10% across the board
surtax on income?

Don would still trade tax bills with us in a heart beat.

If we had an 18% VAT the Dems would want to 'subsidize' the purchase of anything and everything for
the bottom 50% of the population. The top 50% would pay the VAT plus the VAT subsidy for the other
half of the population.

But, the process would keep the Dems in power - until the top 50% started shifting heavily into the
bottom.

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 15:11:59 -0600, Califbill wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote:
On 11/11/13, 11:04 AM, wrote:
On Mon, 11 Nov 2013 08:36:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Have you been
admitted to a hospital in the past few years? Take a look at what they
charge for an aspirin.

You blame that on lawyers as much as anything else. They need a well
documented paper train for everything they do in a hospital that is
strong enough to hold up in court


When I was in the military the Navy dentists scared the crap out of me.
I had full dental coverage and care obviously but on at least two
occasions I paid out of pocket to go to a civilian dentist who I thought
was more "up" with the times. That's an example of what I am talking
about.

That is what a single payer system gets you. Everything goes to the
lowest bidder.

Bull****. The practice I visit accepts single payer (Medicare, for
example), and they are top-rated physicians.


Medicare is not single payer. If you have just Medicare, you will pay a
lot out of pocket. Why we pay for a supplemental plan. And lots of
doctors do not take Medicare patients. We ran in to this when our GP
retired. The doctors my wife wanted did not take Medicare patients.

My doctor will take Medicare patients, if the patient pays $1500 a year to the MDVIP Program.

http://www.mdvip.com/

John H. -- Hope you're having a great day!

The MDVIP system has nothing to do with Medicare or not. You pay the
$1500 if you want the concierge type of service whether you are
Medicare, private insured or private pay.

In article , says...

On 11/12/2013 10:34 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 09:00:51 -0500, John H
wrote:

Do you think a regressive tax like the typical 18% VAT in all of these
other countries would fly here? How about a 10% across the board
surtax on income?

Don would still trade tax bills with us in a heart beat.

If we had an 18% VAT the Dems would want to 'subsidize' the purchase of anything and everything for
the bottom 50% of the population. The top 50% would pay the VAT plus the VAT subsidy for the other
half of the population.


The problem with the VAT is everyone pays it. You can tune it somewhat
by limiting what it applies to but everyone will see some of it


The only way to really tax everybody evenly, even the underground
employed, is a nation wide sales tax eliminating the income tax. That
way everybody really pays taxes, peroid.. No 4 billion dollar IRS
refunds to China and a house in Alabama somewhere... Simple, you live
here, you pay, period...

Holy ****! More delusional bull****.