Jeff Morris wrote:

Once again you show your total ignorance of the rules! Rule 19 does not
require boats to slow to a safe speed, its Rule 6:

On the contrary.

Rule 6 requires speeds to be safe at all times, there is no explicit
mention of reducing to a safe speed. Not even in 19b. Only in 19e.

Both 6 and 19b *imply* that a reduction might be mandated in some
circumstances, but only 19e makes *explicit* mention of reduction,
and then only in specific circumstances.

All vessels must always proceed at a safe speed - this is one of the
basics. Rule 19 says that sometimes you have to go even slower.

Even slower than safe speed? No, it only means that "safe" may at
times mean very slow.

The central issue of this discussion has been your insistance that there
is no situation where a sailboat must slow down.

In this he is of course mistaken.

Yet rule 19 unequivocally mandates that "ALL VESSELS ...
SHALL REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM..." What can be clearer than that?

Careful, you're misquoting. It says "...to the minimum at which she can
be kept on her course", which means the vessel in question doesn't need
to go any slower than the speed at which steerage can be maintained,
unless (as required be the following sentence) it becomes necessary to
take all way off. But remember that the whole of 19e only applies to
vessels which have heard another vessel's fog signal from apparently
forward, or where an unavoidable close quarters situation already exists.

Comments interspersed:

Simple Simon wrote:
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

Wrong and immaterial to the discussion. The discussion is how vessels
react and there responsibility when they can see each other, and when
they can not see each other.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

Absolutely wrong. What you seem unable to comprehend is that when
vessels can not see each other due to some form of restricted
visibility, that there is no stand-on/priveleged status ..... both
vessels must navigate with extreme caution.
IF .... while in fog or some other form of restricted visibility, the
two vessels should come in sight of each other (yes, they may well still
be in restricted visibility) then, and only then, do give-way, stand-on
conditions apply, unless, of course, they are so close, that BOTH
vessels must maneuver to avoid collision.
The very simple governing phrases you seem unable to comprehend and
apply to the terms "fog" and "restricted visibility", are "in sight of"
and "not in sight of".

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

nope

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

Wrong again. Safe speed must be adapted to the prevailing circumstances.
If you are doing seven knots and can barely see your bow or just beyond,
you will never maneuver in time if something should appear. Sorry, rules
for speed apply to sail also.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel
or we are so close that both vessel's must maneuver to avoid collision.
(I'll ignore TSS or narrow channels)
What do you do if you are hearing the fog signal of what turns out to be
a 6000 hp Z-drive tug pushing a 150' deck barge (i.e. a vessel blowing
the same signal you are)

which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once.

immaterial

Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -

Potentially unsafe practices (Notice, it's perfectly OK for Neal to keep
sailing at 5-6 k, but not a motor vessel)

I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Garbage and shows limited sailing skills.. Rules tell you to take all
way off if necessary.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

More garbage. There is no pecking order of any kind, in fog, when two
vessels cannot see each other, no matter what the different signals may
be. There is, also, no way for a motor vessel to tell if it is dealing
with a sailboat, by whistle signals alone.
Here again we can see Neals problem grasping the terms "in sight" and
"not in sight" and relating (or separating them, if you will) with the
terms "fog" and/or "restricted visibility".

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

Again, the problem relating to terminology .... and ....no pecking
order.... and again you've proved nothing.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.

.........ONLY if the vessels can see each other (you're still ignoring
rule 17(b) and how it would affect stand-on status).
So, how's the license renewal coming, Neal? Sure hope they don't make
you take a "Rules" test (open book or otherwise)BG

otn

Simple Simon wrote:

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

Correct, if you replace IS with CAN BE. The in sight rules don't
just suddenly become invalid just because visibility becomes
restricted. The definitions are clear: "in sight" and "restricted
visibility" are not 100% mutually exclusive. That's why the "in
sight" rules apply not when visibility is not restricted, but
when one vessel can be observed visually from the other.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max.

That's crap. There is no way you can seriously claim that
7 knots is a safe speed in thick fog. You should surrender your
master's licence immediately and take up golf.

Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.

Wrong.

In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

Even wronger. In thick fog you would not be under in-sight rules
and so could not possibly be legally standing-on.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel.

Nice try, and I admit there is some logic in this approach, but
it is nevertheless a flagrant violation of 19b, 19c, and 19e,
the point being that sound signals do not allow either you or
the motor boat to determine what your likely relative positions
are going to be once your range closes sufficiently for you
to be able to see each other. The whole point of 19 is that
it recognises that there might not be enough time for whichever
vessel would become the give-way vessel, once the in-sight rules
kick in, to take effective action to avoid collision.

"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...


Simon, you wrote:

If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck


Are you saying that in restricted visibility, you would change course
regardless of whether you had a visual confirmation of the other vessels
position?


Yes I would. The Rules require me to.

S.Simon

Sea fog and land fog are two different animals.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message nk.net...
I guess in pieman land you get light fog only. Here in North Calif you get
friggin fog so thick you can not see the front of the car from the drivers
seat!
Bill

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once. Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.


S.Simon - knows the practical application
as well as the letter of the Rules.



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message
...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I
should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule
1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in
all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed.
It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder
than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb
the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely
feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues
for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick
fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS
and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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Sorry Simon,

You are totally wrong.

If you hear a sound signal in fog but have not clearly identified the other
vessel visually, how the hell do you know where they are?

Sound in fog is like sound in water - it's very difficult to tell which
direction it's coming from. If you alter course without knowing where the
other vessel is, you could increase the risk of collision.

The ONLY sensible and safe course of action is to slow down, post as many
lookouts as you can (difficult if your single handing) and be ready to move
quickly once you get a visual. With luck, the sound signal will get quieter
as the other vessel passes away from you - but in my experience (and i've
sailed a lot in fog in the North Sea and English Channel) this is not
likely.

I hope I never have to sail anywhere with you when there is a risk of fog.
You're a downright danger to yourself and to other shipping.





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Yes they are both different, but they are equally hazardous to shipping and
should be treated accordingly.

I suppose you are implying that there is no wind when you are dealing with
land fog?

What do you think causes the land fog to move out to sea?
The Wind.

Drainage winds and katabatic winds can both move off land out to sea and
carry fog with them.




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Nope, you're wrong! Here's why:


Part B - Steering and Sailing Rules

Section I - Conduct of Vessels in any Condition of Visibility

Rule 4
Application
Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility.

Rule 8
Action to Avoid Collision
(a)Any action taken to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due
regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b) Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit be large enough to be
readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar;
a succession of small alterations of course and/or speed shall be avoided.
(c) If there is sufficient sea room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters situation
provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.
(d) Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness
of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.
(e) If necessary to avoid collision or allow more time to asses the situation, a vessel may slacken her speed or take all way off by
stopping or reversing her means of propulsion.
(f)
(i) A vessel which, by any of these rules, is required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel shall when
required by the circumstances of the case, take early action to allow sufficient sea room for the safe passage of the other vessel.
(ii) A vessel required not to impede the passage or safe passage of another vessel is not relieved of this obligation if approaching
the other vessel so as to involve risk of collision and shall, when taking action, have full regard to the action which may be
required by the rules of this part.
(iii) A vessel the passage of which is not to be impeded remains fully obliged to comply with the rules of this part when the two
vessels are approaching one another so as to involve risk of collision.

I guess you think the above doesn't apply in restricted visibility. Think again.
It applies in all conditions of visibility as stated in Rule 4

S.Simon


"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...
Sorry Simon,

You are totally wrong.

If you hear a sound signal in fog but have not clearly identified the other
vessel visually, how the hell do you know where they are?

Sound in fog is like sound in water - it's very difficult to tell which
direction it's coming from. If you alter course without knowing where the
other vessel is, you could increase the risk of collision.

The ONLY sensible and safe course of action is to slow down, post as many
lookouts as you can (difficult if your single handing) and be ready to move
quickly once you get a visual. With luck, the sound signal will get quieter
as the other vessel passes away from you - but in my experience (and i've
sailed a lot in fog in the North Sea and English Channel) this is not
likely.

I hope I never have to sail anywhere with you when there is a risk of fog.
You're a downright danger to yourself and to other shipping.





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Obviously, you've never sailed in real fog, such as what
we have out here. 35kts and a wall of impenetrable fog.

"Simple Simon" wrote in message
...
Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

"Ronald Raygun" wrote in message
...
Jeff Morris wrote:

Once again you show your total ignorance of the rules! Rule 19 does not
require boats to slow to a safe speed, its Rule 6:

On the contrary.
Rule 6 requires speeds to be safe at all times, there is no explicit
mention of reducing to a safe speed. Not even in 19b. Only in 19e.


You're being pedantic - rule 6 mandates a safe speed at all times. If the visibility gets
worse, this likely means vessels should slow down. I was only pointing out what you are
also claiming, a "safe speed" is not just a requirement in restricted visibility, it
always applies.

Both 6 and 19b *imply* that a reduction might be mandated in some
circumstances, but only 19e makes *explicit* mention of reduction,
and then only in specific circumstances.

Ah, that's why I quoted 19(e) and not 19(b) ???


All vessels must always proceed at a safe speed - this is one of the
basics. Rule 19 says that sometimes you have to go even slower.

Even slower than safe speed? No, it only means that "safe" may at
times mean very slow.

Even more pedantic. You might just claim the 19(e) is not required at all, since its
implied by rule 6. And yes, the courts have ruled that leaving the dock was going too
fast.


The central issue of this discussion has been your insistance that there
is no situation where a sailboat must slow down.

In this he is of course mistaken.

I think we are in strong agreement here.


Yet rule 19 unequivocally mandates that "ALL VESSELS ...
SHALL REDUCE SPEED TO A MINIMUM..." What can be clearer than that?

Careful, you're misquoting. It says "...to the minimum at which she can
be kept on her course", which means the vessel in question doesn't need
to go any slower than the speed at which steerage can be maintained,
unless (as required be the following sentence) it becomes necessary to
take all way off.

I've quoted this rule in full about 5 times in the year we've have this running debate. I
assume the everyone is familiar with the full wording, so I sometimes only quote the
"short version." Neal has claimed that it is unsafe for a sailboat to proceed at anything
less than the full speed for a given wind, and therefore claims that anything less than
hull speed may be unsafe. The rules are specific that there is no such lower limit -
minimum steerageway may be too fast. Indeed, the courts have ruled on occasion that not
dropping the anchor was too fast.

But remember that the whole of 19e only applies to
vessels which have heard another vessel's fog signal from apparently
forward, or where an unavoidable close quarters situation already exists.


Yes, again I assume everyone is familiar with the wording. But all you're saying is that
this rule only applies when there's a possibility of a collision - but that's the
interesting situation!

This debate has gone on for over a year. The two main issues are whether Rule 19(e)
requires sailboats to slow is the visibility is bad enough, and whether the
"prolonged-short-short" signal of some vessels in the fog implies a standon/giveway
relationship. In the current version, Neal is attempting to show that since there is a
grey area where both the "in sight" and "restricted visibility" rules might apply, then
there is pecking order in restricted visibility. And since there is a pecking order,
sailboats need not slow down. Fortunately, no one else seem to be buying it.

--
-jeff
"Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information" ColRegs, Rule 7(c)