Neal's point has been (though he doesn't state it explicitly in this thread) that a
sailboat is "standon" in the thickest fog and is not required to reduce speed. He has
claimed repeatedly that rule 19 does not apply to sailboats because they are incapable of
ever traveling at an unsafe speed.

Is this point of Simon's that you're agreeing with?



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...
At the risk of being a pedant, the COLREGS themselves state the following;

Rule 3
General Definitions
(l) The term "restricted visibility" means any conditions in which
visibility is restricted by fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorms,
sandstorms or any other similar causes.

That aside, from my own experience at sea I'd have to agree with the point
Simon is trying to make.




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Simple Simon wrote:

So, to set things straight with respect to the ongoing
and lame and just plain incorrect arguments presented
by Jeff Morris, Shenn44, Otnmbrd, and Rick, here's
four facts that cannot be disputed.

??? Why drag me into your fantasy world, Nil?

All I ever did was call you a nautical wannabe. The last thing in the
world I would ever do is argue about the COLREGS with the Cliff Claven
of a.s.a.

Shenn and Otnmbrd are unlimited masters with a career at sea actually
operating ships so I do believe they are a bit more qualified to
interpret the COLREGS than, what is it you claim to hold, a 6 pack MOTOR
ticket or something?

The only thing I can see in your post that cannot be disputed is this
determined adherence to your nautical fantasy life and your peculiar
need to shop it around so many newsgroups.

Rick

Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule 1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed. It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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Hey John,
Near my home port, aircraft carriers are the thing to avoid. Of course,
one "tries" to miss the errant PWC too. G

Capt. Frank

John Cairns wrote:

"Everett" wrote in message
...

"Charles T. Low"
snip I'm left not

knowing for sure if your four conclusions are opinions, "guessed" from

the

Rules, or whether the Rules actually say what you're saying.

So, I would appreciate it if you would flesh it out a bit more.

snip

"Simple Simon"

snip

I say there is a pecking order in restricted
visibility.


Lsnip

My argument has been and is that stand-on and give-way
vessels exist in or near restricted visibility and I have proven
it below in a step-by-step, logical fashion.


snip

from the COLREGS http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

"Rule 4
Application

"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

That seems to say it all. Thanks SS

Everett


And the next you're out sailing and it looks like you might be involved in a
collision with a freighter you can wave your copy of the COLREGS at them and
yell "STAND ASIDE"

John Cairns-religiously avoids collisions with 800' lake freighters

On Wed, 15 Oct 2003 03:51:21 GMT, something compelled "Capt.
Frank Hopkins" , to say:

Hey John,
Near my home port, aircraft carriers are the thing to avoid.

Standing orders on USS Prairie, AD 15 read in part:*

Aircraft carriers are unpredictable and change course at will,
with little to no regard to the rest of the fleet. Whenever
steaming with an aircraft carrier, a vigilant watch will be kept
upon it, and the ship will be maneuvered out of the way as
prudent.





*As much as I remember.

"Tim Roberts" wrote in message
...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule 1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed. It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder
than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb
the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues
for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick
fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS
and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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No wind and fog? He has never seen the fog come in the Golden Gate! Or
over the Marin Headlands. Seems as if the CG feels that the big, dang
freighter coming in the the Gate, had priority over everything but the Blue
Angels, etc, this last Sunday. Everytime a large ship came in the gate, the
CG informed all the boats to get out of it's way because of the Col Regs as
it was restricted to channel. Also they informed the ship of the safety box
on the San Franciso waterfront during the Fleet Week airshow. They just
adjusted speed, to arrive during the breaks.
Bill

It was a great day on the bay!

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news
No wind and fog? He has never seen the fog come in the Golden Gate! Or
over the Marin Headlands. Seems as if the CG feels that the big, dang
freighter coming in the the Gate, had priority over everything but the
Blue
Angels, etc, this last Sunday. Everytime a large ship came in the gate,
the
CG informed all the boats to get out of it's way because of the Col Regs
as
it was restricted to channel. Also they informed the ship of the safety
box
on the San Franciso waterfront during the Fleet Week airshow. They just
adjusted speed, to arrive during the breaks.
Bill

Everett wrote:

from the COLREGS http://www.oz.net/~papillon/kbmanual/colregs.html

"Rule 4
Application

"Rules in this section apply to any condition of visibility."

That seems to say it all.

To say what, exactly?

The pecking order (rule 18), stand-on (rule 17), and give-way (rule
16) stuff is not in section I of part B, to which rule 4 refers, but
in section II of part B, which is introduced by rule 11:

"Rules in this section apply to vessels in sight of one another."

So the pecking order *only* applies when in sight.

Section III which is rule 19 applies only to vessels not in
sight of one another, when in restricted visibility. This means
that, even where visibility is restricted (for any reason), as
soon as ships come close enough to see each other, section III
goes out the window and section II kicks in, restoring pecking
order *which does not exist in section III*. But this revived
pecking order may be academic if by then vessels are already
in a close quarters situation.

Jeff Morris wrote:

Neal's point has been (though he doesn't state it explicitly in this
thread) that a
sailboat is "standon" in the thickest fog and is not required to reduce
speed. He has claimed repeatedly that rule 19 does not apply to sailboats
because they are incapable of ever traveling at an unsafe speed.

One has to remember that what is paramount to him is not whether
rule 19 applies "to sailboats" but whether it applies *to him*.

Perhaps in the limited types of situation of which he has experience,
restricted visibility is associated with less wind which will mean
that his sailing vessel is likely already to be proceeding at a safe
speed, and may even already be at the minimum speed at which she can
be kept on her course.

That's not to say that rule 19 doesn't apply to him, merely that he
is already automatically complying with it because the conditions of
19b and 19e are already met.

So, in his own little universe, he's probably right.
For the rest of us, in the real world, the story is different.

Extremely thick fog is mostly a myth. Yes, it occurs on
occassion but the general run of the mill fog is not so thick
that vessels can collide without ever seeing one another.

At any rate, the worst case scenario of pea soup thick fog
is but one case of restricted visibility and the majority of
the other cases definitely allow in-sight situations in or
near an area of restricted visibility. In sight situations
are ruled by the in sight rules which specify give-way and
stand-on status for vessels in sight of one another.

Jeff, Otnmbrd, Shen44 and Rick have up till now maintained
there is NEVER a stand-on vessel in or near an area of
restricted visibility while I have maintained there IS a stand-on
and give-way vessel in or near an area of restricted visibility.

I'm right and they're wrong - that's the bottom line.

I maintain that my sailboat even in a thick fog is going at
a safe speed by virtue of the fact that the hull speed is less
than seven knots max. Many fogs have little or no wind so
I may well be going even slower. Even if the winds are brisk
in a fog and I'm going hull speed I'm still going at a safe speed.
In effect, I'm standing on and I'm doing it completely legally.

If I hear the fog signal of a motor vessel I know right away
if and when we come in sight of each other I am the stand-on
vessel and the motor vessel is the give way vessel unless I'm
overtaking the motor vessel which is not likely at all considering
they all think safe speed is 10-15 knots instead of the usual
20-30 knots - let's face the facts here for once. Therefore,
I keep going at my safe speed of five or six knots and try
to determine by the sound signal if there's a danger of collision.
If I determine there is a danger of collision I change course -
I'm certainly not going to take all sails down and come to
a stop and become a sitting duck to be run over and sunk
by a ship not keeping an adequate lookout and going too
fast for the conditions. This would be causing a collision and
not avoiding a collision - a violation of the RULES.

Yet this what the arrogant tugboat captains are saying the
Rules require me to do. WRONG! When a motor vessel
hears the fog signal of a sailboat or any other boat above
it in the pecking order it knows before even coming in sight
of that vessel that the motor vessel is the give way vessel
in a close quarters situation and a close quarters situation
in most cases of restricted visibility in an in sight situation.

This is what I call the abbreviated pecking order. That
there is an abbreviated pecking order proves there is a
give-way and stand-on vessel in restricted visibility.

If and when the motor vessel and sailing vessels come
within sight of one another the motor vessel already knows
it is the give-way vessel in all but the overtaking situation.
(we're not talking narrow channels, traffic schemes, etc,
here - we're talking at sea.) This means the
give-way/stand-on status exists in or near an area of
restricted visibility.


S.Simon - knows the practical application
as well as the letter of the Rules.



"Tim Roberts" wrote in message ...
Sorry Jeff,

It seems I also missed much of the earlier thread.

I was agreeing with the point that thick fog is not the only type of
restricted visibility.

Now that I have discovered a bit more about the original thread, I should
perhaps add a couple of points;

First Point:

Rule 19 Very definitely applies to all vessels at sea by virtue of Rule 1
(Application)

'(a) These Rules shall apply to all vessels upon the high seas and in all
waters connected therewith navigable by seagoing vessels'


Second Point:

Did Neal really claim that you don't get wind in fog?
He perhaps needs to understand the process by which sea-fog is formed. It
happens when warm, wet air comes into contact with a sea that is colder than
it's own dew point. The only way sea fog disperses is 'normally' with a
change in wind direction which brings in dry air which is able to absorb the
moisture in the fog. Continued wind from the same direction merely feeds
more moisture, and thus, more fog! If the same wind direction continues for
long enough - the fog gets thicker and thicker.

I have certainly been in situations where I have been sailing in thick fog.
I find it safer than motoring because you can hear other vessels sound
signals much easier than with an engine on.

Sorry to bore everyone with this pedantry, but I lecture in both COLREGS and
Meteorology amongst other things.





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