On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

In article ,
says...

On 8/30/2013 2:58 PM, John H wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 09:07:16 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 14:42:15 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013 09:44:00 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

The interesting thing is that the 12 step programs have a higher "success" rate than the
institutional or non 12 step programs. I know several people who have been in 12 step
programs and they have been sober for 15 and 20 years. They were never institutionalized,
they never received "professional" help with their addiction. People have to want to change
and forceing them to change or trying to modify their behavior isn't going to succeed.

Cite?

It is going to be hard. I looked at this for about 4 hours last night.
I can find hundreds of articles saying THEIR program works "X"% of the
time (with questionable stats) but it is very hard to find any actual
studies that track the people in a verifiable case study.
Places like CDC and NIH where you would expect this to happen don't
seem to be doing it. The studies where they are actually looking at
particular therapies seen to show pretty dismal results and the
longest term study I saw was that methadone deal. They tried to polish
that turd but the numbers expose the truth. Over half the patients
were using illegal drugs 18 months in, while still in therapy.

12 step, particularly AA, does seem to work as long as the person
stays in the program but a lot of people simply walk away and they
still may fall off the wagon occasionally. The question is whether
they try to get back on.

I have been to a few meetings as a visitor and it is an interesting
process. There is a certain religious component but it is far from the
main driver of the program. They are really trying to say this is YOUR
problem and YOU have to fix it. Then they give you some tools.
They don't seem to care which god you want to use if that is the tool
you decide on.
I think the sponsor relationship might be the best tool.



Some of the biggest AA meetings, believe it or not, happen in prison.
People there are remorseful, and also they get coffee and cigarettes!
So, they go, until they get out, then it's same old same old.

Cite? Or personal experience?

John (Gun Nut) H.

http://tinyurl.com/pxgo9s2
http://www.aa.org/pdf/products/p-26_AAinCF.pdf
http://tinyurl.com/oqxat2d
http://silkworth.net/bobp/chapter14.html

And yes, personal experience. I relative that I've dealt with on their
attempts at recovery did prison time. Do you have a problem with that,
asshole?

Your cites say nothing of 'same old same old' when they get out.

Did you bother to read them?

Does the name-calling boost your ego?

John (Gun Nut) H.


Hummmm.. I wonder if his "relative" was in prison at the same time kevin
dissappeared for what, 18 mos here with a mystery disease? ...

I'm sorry, are you trying to say something? All I read is insane babble
from your jawbone.