"Hank©" wrote in message
eb.com...


What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?

---------------------------------------

Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F
.. Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .

Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but
then clearing up.

On 8/28/2013 10:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Hank©" wrote in message
eb.com...


What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?

---------------------------------------

Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F .
Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .

Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but
then clearing up.

Cool

On 8/28/2013 9:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the 12
step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and had
only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I had no
clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any particular
theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long
as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than
yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering addicts
to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my wife deal
with my family member's addiction and explained their respective
adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as it applied
to them . Some took it more literally than others, but it seemed to
benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.





A close friend is in Recovery for about ten years now... Cleaned up just
about the time his parents sold their farm and gave all of the kids a
million each. He has spent it running a recovery home and program for
addicts now for almost ten years... Heroin and the Oxy drugs are the
worst... they just never, ever let go. Met a couple guys a week or so
back, my age, work with riders. Pin holes for pupils, I hate it...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 8:31:08 PM UTC-5, Mr. Luddite wrote:

I didn't think it

overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any

particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you

believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in

the universe than yourselves.


Exactly right, Rich. But it seems that to Harry that *IS* religion"



I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.

It doesn't of course- that is, unless you believe it does...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 9:03:29 PM UTC-5, Hank© wrote:
On 8/28/2013 10:01 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:





"Hank©" wrote in message

eb.com...





What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?



---------------------------------------



Tomorrow - Cloudy skies early, followed by partial clearing. High 72F ..

Winds NNE at 10 to 15 mph .



Alerts for heavy fog in most areas from early am through mid day, but

then clearing up.



Cool

Cool? I wish it was here in the Midwest again. Tommorow another high 90's day. It's presently 82f. outside at 9:50 pm CST.

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.

On 8/28/2013 11:28 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 21:31:08 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

===

That's an important first step. Literally, the more we learn about
the universe, the stranger it becomes. It is doubtful to me that we
will ever understand the whole enchilada since new layers of the onion
always seem to appear as the old ones are peeled away. Some choose to
explain it with science, others with religion. In the end it may not
make any difference but I lean towards science.


Ha, I believe God *is* a Scientist... of sorts.... chew on that

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:


I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.


-------------------------------

Unfortunately I think you are correct. I did a lot of research on
this subject a year ago when we were funding the cost of private rehab
for someone.
As he neared the end of the actual rehab program the facility started
really pushing the sober house phase which they also happened to
offer.
By that time I was armed to the teeth with current statistical data on
long term success rates of the overall programs and got into a fairly
heated debate with one of the facility administrators. I realized
she was just doing her job but I felt she was over emphasizing their
claims of success rates.
I've forgotten the exact numbers but the long term success rate is
dismally low.

We ended up doing something else to help get him through the next 6
months of supervised "existence" while he pulled his life back
together.
So far, so good, but I am not fooling myself into thinking he is
"cured". Might be, but statistically the chances are low. One thing
that definitely helps (I think) is his continued participation in
meetings and willingness to openly discuss his addiction/recovery.

On 8/28/13 11:57 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:40:56 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:

OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

I have not found any reliable study that says any significant number
of substance abusers come out of rehab, therapy or any or any other
program with a 10 year success rate. There are a few people selling
rehab who say they have amazing success rates but they are selling
something, not doing research.

It was your contention I was wrong. Prove it.

I would accept 25% as a win for you if it was a real study that
actually tracked patients for any significant amount of time.
(not just people who stopped coming back)

I only have to look at the half million or more addicted homeless to
see all is not going well in paradise. That does not include those dis
functionals who are living with friends or family.

Then you have the addicts who are working at some level of
functionality and the high functioning addicts.




Once again, you are exhibiting an inability to think abstractly. Drug
addiction is not an illness like, oh, the usual childhood diseases that
can be prevented by an inoculation or that caught once, tend not to
haunt you again. Drug addiction treatment, once administered, does not
mean the individual who receives it has lifetime or even 10-year
protection from a relapse.

Drug addiction is a chronic disease, and it can be managed properly and
successfully. But relapses are more than possible, as they are with
other chronic medical illnesses, such as asthma or hypertension. And
because there are strong possibilities of relapses with drug addiction
doesn't mean treatment is a failure. As with other chronic illnesses,
treatment for drug addiction necessitates lifetime evaluation and
perhaps modifications when necessary. If you suffer from diabetes,
proper treatment can help you get it under control and most of the
symptoms will disappear, and the treatment is successful.

What happens if you discontinue treatment for your chronic disease? It
probably returns and you have a relapse. When a drug addict relapses, it
doesn't necessarily mean the treatment he is receiving (or ignoring) has
failed. It may just mean the treatment needs to be re-started or changed.

Many people with certain mental/emotional illnesses get relief with a
combination of medications and therapy that help them feel better and
regain control of their lives. Some of those illnesses will require
patients to take medications for the rest of their lives. After a while
on meds, though, some patients talk themselves into believing they are
"cured," so they stop the medications. So, what happens? In many cases
the symptoms of the mental/emotional illness returns.

Oh, and once again, 12-step programs are not treatment…they provide support.

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 13:24:37 -0400, iBoaterer
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 12:12:24 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:


Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?


The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are
not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates
traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,
prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by
himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a
good chance of falling over and dying.

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


Conventional therapy is substituting one drug for another.

That's only one form.

Is Methadone really that much better than Heroin?
I understand drug companies make the money not drug smugglers but the
drug is about the same.

Tax revenue!

Religion based programs do have the advantage that they are
substituting a belief for a drug but I guess you think that is as bad.

I do agree it is not the kind of thing that will be successful if it
is just a sentence from a court. They have to believe it will work or
it won't work. The reality is these things don't really work anyway
until the addict decides they don't want to be addicted anymore.
For some, there is no "bottom" that is low enough to do that.

Maybe we should just have drug zones and let them kill themselves.
Free drugs, all you want anytime you want them and come in every
morning with a Bobcat to pick up the bodies.

Bobcats don't eat that much.... (Humor, come on!!!)


We may not have much to argue about here.

I am guessing you have had some addicts in your close circle and you
have hit the wall more times than you want to admit, trying to help
them.

Me too.

And I may add, the assholes that said Oh, if so and so wanted to quit
(insert what drug here) they could! That of course is horse****, I've
watched it with my own eyes.