On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.

On 8/28/2013 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


I have known lots of junkies, ran into a bunch over the last twenty
years in Essex area... I really can't think of one who has successfully
kicked yet. In fact, I can't think of one that isn't on a downward
spiral with maybe some slow decent periods, but still all in all, on the
way down...

On 8/28/13 5:24 PM, JustWaitAFrekinMinute wrote:
On 8/28/2013 5:11 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 16:58:47 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 4:16 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.



Well, we all know that your years of experience with the addict next
door plus, of course, your years of experience treating addicts of all
varieties plus your educational background plus your years of
supervision give you the wherewithal to make black or white
pronouncements about the efficacy of all manner of treatment for all
manner of addicts.

There's no question that successfully treating substance abuse is not an
easy task, and that a high percentage of addicts fall back into their
bad habits. But that doesn't mean we should give up on addicts and
addiction treatment.

Oh, and "once a junkie, always a junkie" is hyperbolic bull****.

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


I have known lots of junkies, ran into a bunch over the last twenty
years in Essex area... I really can't think of one who has successfully
kicked yet. In fact, I can't think of one that isn't on a downward
spiral with maybe some slow decent periods, but still all in all, on the
way down...


Indeed, I am sure you and your gang of fellow junkies are on the way down.

wrote in message ...

On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 15:58:34 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



Rehab, any kind, is generally ineffective over the long haul.
People either decide to stop or they don't but you can't make them
if
they don't want to.


Right, so let's not even try, right?



The question is "how many times"?

The guy next door to me has been to rehab about 10 times, at tax payer
expense and it has not made a lick of difference. He calls it "going
to the spa"
This is the same guy who has been "Baker acted" about a dozen times
(involuntary assessment for "up to 72 hours")
He has that down to about 4 hours because he knows what to say.

They tried jail the last time and he was supposed to be locked up for
a while but I still see him walking around. (if you can call that
shuffling stumble "walking")

I tried to help for years but I gave up on him 3 arrests ago.
This guy can really tell a story and make you believe he wants to get
better but once a junkie, always a junkie.

----------------------------------

Yesterday I ran into a guy I know but had not seen in about a year.
He's an alcoholic and drug abuser. It culminated in a boating
accident where he was found partially responsible in another person's
death due to operating a boat while intoxicated. He didn't serve any
jail time but entered rehab. I've seen him off an on since and he
had remained totally sober. Until 3 months ago. After seven years
of not drinking, he was at a party and someone started making Mimosas.
All it took was one and he's back to drinking again. Sad.

On 8/28/13 5:35 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 28 Aug 2013 17:23:40 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 8/28/13 5:11 PM, wrote:

How many do you know?
How many were cured?

The guy next door is just a good example of lots of experience I have
with a number of these people.
Maybe it is just because I don't live in that rarified air of academia
you live in.
Addicts there are more deeply closeted and hidden from view by
families rich enough to keep them under wraps.


You may have "experienced" relationships of some sort with a limited
number of addicts, but you have no professional education, experience,
or credentials in addiction or its treatment, nor are you considered any
sort of expert in the field. You have a few anecdotes.



OK your turn. Show me some peer reviewed studies about the 10 year
success of "rehab".


I'm sure you can do your own lit search. Have at it.

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in
a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights
claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.

Herr Krause should be outraged by this but, I doubt he will be.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion..._sip_of_water_
7zwT2vBrUGqhDzasfQxkKK

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 5:46:52 PM UTC-4, BAR wrote:


Herr Krause should be outraged by this but, I doubt he will be.



http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion..._sip_of_water_

7zwT2vBrUGqhDzasfQxkKK

Herr Krause hasn't come "out " yet......

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

On Tue, 27 Aug 2013 21:33:33 -0400, "F.O.A.D." wrote:



(CN) - An avowed atheist who was jailed for refusing to participate in

a 12-step treatment program deserves a new trial of his civil rights

claims, the 9th Circuit ruled.

Barry Hazle sued his parole officer, several California

corrections officials and Westcare Corp. after they revoked his

probation for a drug conviction because of his "congenial" refusal to

recognize a higher power, as the 12-step recovery method requires.

Hazle said he told officials several times about his atheism and

reluctance to participate in religious treatment programs after pleading

no-contest in 2006 to possession of methamphetamine. Nonetheless, in

2007 he was paroled to a 90-day residential program that offered only

the 12 Steps, many of which call for explicit acceptance of God.

When he refused to participate, staff reported Hazle to his parole

officer, saying that he was being "disruptive, though in a congenial

way, to the staff as well as other students," according to the ruling.

Hazle then found himself back in prison for another 100 days.

His federal civil rights action sought damages for false

imprisonment, among other things. U.S. District Judge Garland Burrell in

San Francisco found the defendants were indeed liable for depriving

Hazle of his First Amendment rights and turned the issue over to a jury

to determine the amount of damages.

The jury awarded zero damages.

Hazle shot back with a motion for a new trial, but was denied. A

three-judge panel of the 9th Circuit reversed Friday, finding that Hazle

was entitled to something.

"The district judge's finding of liability establishes that Hazle

suffered actual injury when he was unconstitutionally incarcerated,"

Judge Stephen Reinhardt wrote for the court. "Given this undisputed

finding that Hazle's constitutional rights were violated, and applying

the rule that the award of compensatory damages is mandatory when the

existence of actual injury is beyond dispute, we hold that the district

judge erred in refusing to hold that Hazle was, as a matter of law,

entitled to compensatory damages. We therefore reverse the district

judge's denial of Hazle's motion for a new trial."



http://tinyurl.com/p4pmh65



- - -



Ahh, the religious.



Has anyone had any better success with drug addiction?





The 12-Step programs are self-help and reassurance programs, they are

not the sort of "therapy" many addicts need. That therapy incorporates

traditional therapy, whether individual or group, and in many cases,

prescription therapy. If a drug addict goes cold turkey by

himself/herself and right into some 12-step program, the addict has a

good chance of falling over and dying.



The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are

off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion

shoved down their throats.

"
The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. "

There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step' programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want
religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the
12 step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and
had only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I
had no clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy
my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any
particular theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you
believe in as long as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in
the universe than yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering
addicts to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my
wife deal with my family member's addiction and explained their
respective adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as
it applied to them . Some took it more literally than others, but
it seemed to benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.

On 8/28/2013 9:31 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:


"Tim" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, August 28, 2013 11:12:24 AM UTC-5, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 8/28/13 11:22 AM, wrote:

The religious underpinnings and overlay of 12-step programs are
off-putting for many addicts. A lot of people simply don't want religion
shoved down their throats.


There's a lot of substance/alcohol abusers who while in the `12-step'
programs , follow the religious overtones closely.

---------------------

Last year when I was involved with a family member's rehab and first
steps with recovery I got a copy of the "Big Book" to read what the 12
step thing was all about. I had never heard of the "Big Book" and had
only heard about the "12 step program" in the form of jokes. I had no
clue what they actually were. Pretty naïve I guess for a guy my age.

I confess that I didn't read the Big Book cover to cover, but I read
enough to get the history, ideas and concepts. I didn't think it
overly pushes religion at all, and certainly doesn't push any particular
theology. I got the it really doesn't care what you believe in as long
as you acknowledge that there are bigger things in the universe than
yourselves.

I was also fortunate to have several people who I had met (mostly
through the guitar shop) who confided their status as recovering addicts
to me. Prior to that I had no idea. They helped me and my wife deal
with my family member's addiction and explained their respective
adaptations of and implementation of the 12 step program as it applied
to them . Some took it more literally than others, but it seemed to
benefit them all.

I certainly don't think it "shoves" religion down anyone's throats.




It certainly trumps any treatment Harry has offered up.
?
?
What's the weather forecast for your 20 early Thursday PM?