"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 7:22 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message


There isn't going to be a real economic recovery until there is a
restructuring of our society. Too much of our nation's wealth is in
the
hands of the super rich, and the trend in that direction continues.
More
then they have since the 19th Century here, workers have become a
disposable commodity, with more of them working without even basic
protections, with a diminishing number of employers providing health
care, with few employers providing defined pensions, et cetera. It's
becoming much more difficult to put away a few dollars when one is
facing a lifetime of really insecure employment, family medical
bills,
et cetera. As a society, we're on the downhill part of a roller
coaster
ride that sadly leads only to the bottom.

--------------------------------------------------

Why is that so? I don't agree with your "disposable commodity"
mentality, but I do agree that there is a shrinking middle class due
to
a corresponding shrinking job market. Even Al Gore warned of this
way
back when. So did Ross Perot.

There has always been "super rich". Why is the "super rich"
suddenly
and primarily responsible for the job losses and resultant middle
class
unemployment?

The primary reason is global competition for traditional
manufacturing
jobs in industry. As Wayne pointed out, there will always be jobs
that
can't be outsourced, but everyone can't be a plumber, electrician
or
HVAC technician. For a while, everyone and his brother was becoming
an
"IT" serviceperson or was setting up website creation and
maintenance
services. But with canned software, anyone with half a brain can
create
and maintain their own website.

Go to an ER or hospital lately? A good number of the doctors are
transplants from other countries. Cars run for 100,000 miles or
more
with only cursory maintenance. Used to require a tune-up every
20,000
miles. Electronic devices like computers and TV's have become
disposable and cheap. No need to repair them and when they can be
repaired, you can usually do it yourself. Magazines and newspapers
are
on the decline. Everything worth reading can be found on the
Internet. No need for mechanics maintaining printing presses or
truck
drivers delivering bales of newspapers anymore.

If you stop to think about all the technological advances made in
the
past 15 years or so and also consider the global competition for the
manufacturing jobs, I think it becomes clear what has happened to
middle class jobs.



There used to be a social compact in this country, a compact that
produced a thriving middle class with significant opportunity for
upward
mobility.

The primary reason middle class jobs have disappeared is...greed. The
so-called "investor class" is making money hand over fist and is
taking
a growing percentage of national wealth and not investing it here. At
some point, that trend will stop and reverse or you will see more
Russian-like revolutions. The world cannot just exist for the rich.

What you are predicting is an ever growing class of really marginally
employed people in this country. If that continues, there really is no
reason for this country to exist.

----------------------------------------------------------

You keep giving these altruistic reasons like "social compacts" and
the like. The social compacts were a result of mutual loyalties
between employer and employees. They've been on the decline since
the early 70's and the fault lies with both. They also occurred
during a period where competition was mostly among domestic companies.
That all ended with the emergence of the so called "global economy"
whereby qualified competition exists in countries where pay scales and
benefit packages don't come close to the costs of those traditionally
paid here.

Somehow you seem to think that a domestic company can successfully
compete paying twice or triple the cost in pay and benefits with other
companies that utilized cheap offshore labor. The reality is that
the company wouldn't be in business much longer.

It's nice to talk about social compacts and such but a business must
survive first if it is to benefit the employees. I haven't heard a
peep from you or other liberals about how a business is supposed to
accomplish this.

I think the only way it can ever be solved is a radical change in
expectations of pay and benefit packages in this country. Sounds
harsh and unfair, but it's the facts Jack. Jobs that paid $60-$80
per hour in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and
people are going to have to accept it as reality. In time, the
overall cost of living will decrease to adjust to lower overall wages.
Housing prices will drop. Cars and transportation costs will drop.
We will probably go through a period of deflation.

I think it is already starting, BTW. The unemployment rate is so
high for people entering the workforce that those who *do* find a job
are forced to accept starting wages that are much lower than what was
paid 5, 10 or 15 years ago. Why do you think people are living on
extended unemployment benefits while they search and wait for a job
that pays any where close to what they used to make?

Wages and benefit packages traditionally paid within the USA became a
bubble that has burst, just like so many other bubbles we've
witnessed.
Competition is the reason.

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

------------------------------------

You have a one track mind. But, I agree that *all* compensation will
have to be adjusted in order to compete successfully.

As for the Wall Street types ... the hedge fund managers, the big
bankers and brokers .... they can all go rot in hell.

On 3/18/13 9:36 AM, Eisboch wrote:


"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

------------------------------------

You have a one track mind. But, I agree that *all* compensation will
have to be adjusted in order to compete successfully.

As for the Wall Street types ... the hedge fund managers, the big
bankers and brokers .... they can all go rot in hell.



Rotting in hell is not sufficient for those guys. And yes, I would like
to see some level of fairness restored to the compensation of workers in
comparison to the "bosses."

On 3/18/2013 9:49 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:

"F.O.A.D." wrote in message
m...

Rotting in hell is not sufficient for those guys. And yes, I would like
to see some level of fairness restored to the compensation of workers in
comparison to the "bosses."

How much is fair?
Is it OK to be fair to non union as well as union workers?
Is it fair to lock out non union workers from union operated job sites?

Union greed is just as responsible for killing jobs in America, as the
people that put THEIR MONEY on the line to create jobs.

The greedy unions did force the greedy capitalists to move their money
and jobs offshore. It's just the way it is.

On 3/18/2013 9:27 AM, F.O.A.D. wrote:
On 3/18/13 8:47 AM, Eisboch wrote:

Jobs that paid $60-$80 per hour
in terms of burdened cost are going to pay half that and people are
going to have to accept it as reality.


Except, of course, for "executive pay," which reached multiples of
average worker pay never imagined, and except for the investment
bankers, brokers, bankers, LBO sharks and others, who are robbing the
economy blind.

Don't worry about executive pay. People way above your pay grade deal
with that. Don't bull**** us. You are just jealous that you didn't get
on the real gravy train. What you stole was small potatoes. You snooze
you lose. Sorry.