On 2/17/13 5:30 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 14:09:10 -0500, iBoaterer wrote:

I guess if losing 400,000 troops is a "win"....

We are not speaking German or Japanese.
it was a win.


The Vietnamese never threatened the US but if the spread of economic
freedom was our goal, we won. Have you turned a piece of wood
furniture over lately? It usually says made in Vietnam. They are even
cutting into the Chinese manufacturing base.
We certainly made IndoChina safe for the sale of Marlboro and
Budweiser


There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.

--
I'm a *Liberal* because I knew the militant christian fundamentalist
racist militaristic xenophobic corporate oligarchy wasn't going to work
for me.

On 2/17/13 9:34 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.

Vietnam is probably about where China was 10 years ago. Right now
China has more middle class people than the US. They are starting to
reach up and demand more things. GM going to sell more cars in China
than they do in the US this year



China has nearly five times the population of the United States. Middle
income in China is defined at about $20,000. China has a lot of
millionaires on a numerical basis, but most Chinese are still living in
abject poverty. The wealthy are raiding that country just as they have
here.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 01:46:39 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 21:45:33 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

On 2/17/13 9:34 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.

Vietnam is probably about where China was 10 years ago. Right now
China has more middle class people than the US. They are starting to
reach up and demand more things. GM going to sell more cars in China
than they do in the US this year



China has nearly five times the population of the United States. Middle
income in China is defined at about $20,000. China has a lot of
millionaires on a numerical basis, but most Chinese are still living in
abject poverty. The wealthy are raiding that country just as they have
here.

It is all relative, If you use the US standard of living, most of the
world is living in abject poverty.
I agree the people out in the country in China are not seeing much
from the industrial revolution there but the same was true here 100
years ago.

The open question is what happens when China's economy slows down ...
but that is a global problem.

You mean you don't believe in a market driven economy? Good grief.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D."
wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China.
What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has
been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries
are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They
got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.


==============================

More like the USA is heading toward where China *was* before the
1980's.

Prior to China's great experiment in capitalism, the government
provided all necessary commodities, including food and clothing to the
general population on a ration basis. Everyone lived, ate and dressed
alike. It was an existence, although a meager one. Then, in the
1980's, certain provinces in China were opened to industrial
modernization as an experiment in controlled capitalism. Foreign
countries (including the USA and Canada) were invited to establish
manufacturing and to enter into "joint ventures" within these regions.
I participated in one of them in 1986 in a remote area of China
called Wuxi .... about a three hour drive on mostly dirt roads (back
then) northeast of Shanghai. I saw very few cars but thousands of
Chinese pedaling bicycles, both in the rural areas outside of Wuxi and
within the city itself. Very few of the industrial plants that we
visited (and their associated restaurants) had any form of modern
toilets. I remember the "facilities" consisted of an inclined trough
along a wall that exited through a hole in the wall and simply drained
outside.

Fast forward to today and Wuxi is a modern, active city with
automobiles everywhere, replacing the bicycles. The standard of
living for the average Chinese worker has risen dramatically. People
live in clean, modern apartments with wide screen TV's (unheard of in
the 1980's) and shops selling consumer goods have sprung up
everywhere, replacing the government rationing. Wages may not
compare to the "middle class" of the USA, but that's a relative thing.
Most important is that the experiment in capitalism has been a
resounding success and the quality and standard of living for more and
more Chinese people has grown by leaps and bounds. It's not a
"relatively few people" that are doing better. A growing number in
the millions are doing better. Sure, some remote areas have not yet
benefited, but the trend has been established.

Here, we seem to be moving in the other direction with the government
being expected to provide more and more for the population's needs.

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 21:34:59 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.

Vietnam is probably about where China was 10 years ago. Right now
China has more middle class people than the US. They are starting to
reach up and demand more things. GM going to sell more cars in China
than they do in the US this year

Can't imagine ESAD bitching about the exploitive effects of socialism.


Salmonbait

--
'Name-calling'...the liberals' answer to a lost argument!

You know you live in a Country run by idiots if...
....the death penalty is a 'no-no', but death by Hellfire
*without* a trial is AOK!

On 2/18/2013 4:38 AM, Eisboch wrote:





On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.


==============================

More like the USA is heading toward where China *was* before the 1980's.

Prior to China's great experiment in capitalism, the government provided
all necessary commodities, including food and clothing to the general
population on a ration basis. Everyone lived, ate and dressed alike.
It was an existence, although a meager one. Then, in the 1980's,
certain provinces in China were opened to industrial modernization as an
experiment in controlled capitalism. Foreign countries (including the
USA and Canada) were invited to establish manufacturing and to enter
into "joint ventures" within these regions. I participated in one of
them in 1986 in a remote area of China called Wuxi .... about a three
hour drive on mostly dirt roads (back then) northeast of Shanghai. I
saw very few cars but thousands of Chinese pedaling bicycles, both in
the rural areas outside of Wuxi and within the city itself. Very few of
the industrial plants that we visited (and their associated
restaurants) had any form of modern toilets. I remember the
"facilities" consisted of an inclined trough along a wall that exited
through a hole in the wall and simply drained outside.

Fast forward to today and Wuxi is a modern, active city with automobiles
everywhere, replacing the bicycles. The standard of living for the
average Chinese worker has risen dramatically. People live in clean,
modern apartments with wide screen TV's (unheard of in the 1980's) and
shops selling consumer goods have sprung up everywhere, replacing the
government rationing. Wages may not compare to the "middle class" of
the USA, but that's a relative thing. Most important is that the
experiment in capitalism has been a resounding success and the quality
and standard of living for more and more Chinese people has grown by
leaps and bounds. It's not a "relatively few people" that are doing
better. A growing number in the millions are doing better. Sure,
some remote areas have not yet benefited, but the trend has been
established.

Here, we seem to be moving in the other direction with the government
being expected to provide more and more for the population's needs.




You don't have to sell Harry on the idea. He once claimed he was
himself, a capitalist.;-)

In article om,
says...

On 2/18/2013 4:38 AM, Eisboch wrote:





On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.


==============================

More like the USA is heading toward where China *was* before the 1980's.

Prior to China's great experiment in capitalism, the government provided
all necessary commodities, including food and clothing to the general
population on a ration basis. Everyone lived, ate and dressed alike.
It was an existence, although a meager one. Then, in the 1980's,
certain provinces in China were opened to industrial modernization as an
experiment in controlled capitalism. Foreign countries (including the
USA and Canada) were invited to establish manufacturing and to enter
into "joint ventures" within these regions. I participated in one of
them in 1986 in a remote area of China called Wuxi .... about a three
hour drive on mostly dirt roads (back then) northeast of Shanghai. I
saw very few cars but thousands of Chinese pedaling bicycles, both in
the rural areas outside of Wuxi and within the city itself. Very few of
the industrial plants that we visited (and their associated
restaurants) had any form of modern toilets. I remember the
"facilities" consisted of an inclined trough along a wall that exited
through a hole in the wall and simply drained outside.

Fast forward to today and Wuxi is a modern, active city with automobiles
everywhere, replacing the bicycles. The standard of living for the
average Chinese worker has risen dramatically. People live in clean,
modern apartments with wide screen TV's (unheard of in the 1980's) and
shops selling consumer goods have sprung up everywhere, replacing the
government rationing. Wages may not compare to the "middle class" of
the USA, but that's a relative thing. Most important is that the
experiment in capitalism has been a resounding success and the quality
and standard of living for more and more Chinese people has grown by
leaps and bounds. It's not a "relatively few people" that are doing
better. A growing number in the millions are doing better. Sure,
some remote areas have not yet benefited, but the trend has been
established.

Here, we seem to be moving in the other direction with the government
being expected to provide more and more for the population's needs.




You don't have to sell Harry on the idea. He once claimed he was
himself, a capitalist.;-)

The title "thief" may be more appropriate due to the fact that he steals
from people because he doesn't pay his taxes.

On 2/18/2013 9:31 AM, BAR wrote:
In article om,
says...

On 2/18/2013 4:38 AM, Eisboch wrote:





On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 19:18:39 -0500, "F.O.A.D." wrote:

There's not much "economic freedom" in either Vietnam or China. What has
happened is that one form of economic exploitation of workers has been
exchanged for another. A relatively few people in both countries are
doing well, and the rest are working for near slavery wages. They got to
where this country is headed before we did, that's all.


==============================

More like the USA is heading toward where China *was* before the 1980's.

Prior to China's great experiment in capitalism, the government provided
all necessary commodities, including food and clothing to the general
population on a ration basis. Everyone lived, ate and dressed alike.
It was an existence, although a meager one. Then, in the 1980's,
certain provinces in China were opened to industrial modernization as an
experiment in controlled capitalism. Foreign countries (including the
USA and Canada) were invited to establish manufacturing and to enter
into "joint ventures" within these regions. I participated in one of
them in 1986 in a remote area of China called Wuxi .... about a three
hour drive on mostly dirt roads (back then) northeast of Shanghai. I
saw very few cars but thousands of Chinese pedaling bicycles, both in
the rural areas outside of Wuxi and within the city itself. Very few of
the industrial plants that we visited (and their associated
restaurants) had any form of modern toilets. I remember the
"facilities" consisted of an inclined trough along a wall that exited
through a hole in the wall and simply drained outside.

Fast forward to today and Wuxi is a modern, active city with automobiles
everywhere, replacing the bicycles. The standard of living for the
average Chinese worker has risen dramatically. People live in clean,
modern apartments with wide screen TV's (unheard of in the 1980's) and
shops selling consumer goods have sprung up everywhere, replacing the
government rationing. Wages may not compare to the "middle class" of
the USA, but that's a relative thing. Most important is that the
experiment in capitalism has been a resounding success and the quality
and standard of living for more and more Chinese people has grown by
leaps and bounds. It's not a "relatively few people" that are doing
better. A growing number in the millions are doing better. Sure,
some remote areas have not yet benefited, but the trend has been
established.

Here, we seem to be moving in the other direction with the government
being expected to provide more and more for the population's needs.




You don't have to sell Harry on the idea. He once claimed he was
himself, a capitalist.;-)

The title "thief" may be more appropriate due to the fact that he steals
from people because he doesn't pay his taxes.


Harry fails to see what others see in him.

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 16:42:35 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 17 Feb 2013 23:22:45 -0800, Urin Asshole
wrote:

On Mon, 18 Feb 2013 01:46:39 -0500, wrote:



It is all relative, If you use the US standard of living, most of the
world is living in abject poverty.
I agree the people out in the country in China are not seeing much
from the industrial revolution there but the same was true here 100
years ago.

The open question is what happens when China's economy slows down ...
but that is a global problem.

You mean you don't believe in a market driven economy? Good grief.

Do you just type your snarky remarks without reading the note you are
replying to? What did I say about the free market?

It's hard to tell, since your comments blow. I mean blow with the
wind.