On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't work?
Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?

--------------------------------------------------------

Back in 1996 or thereabouts, $1/watt was the target goal thought to
make solar economically viable. It was then about $3/watt. The cost
reduction since has been made in production methods and capacity
however, not so much in the efficiency of the cells. Efficiency has
risen, but not enough to make them a serious, major source of power.
Much of the attention has turned from the chemistry of the panels
themselves (there are only so many ways to make them) to increasing
the output by special coatings on the glass covers, huge solar energy
farms and unique methods of focusing sunlight with mirrors onto small
arrays in towers.

One problem that remains is the effective life expectancy of the
panels. Their output capacity drops dramatically as they age ... some
to less than 50 percent of original capacity after only a few years.
This is an increasingly important trade-off as more sunlight is
focused onto the panels to increase efficiency and is not always
factored into the ROI by solar energy proponents and contractors.

In the early 1980's, I had the unique opportunity to meet Stanford
Ovshinsky of Energy Conversion Devices. This was during the first of
three major "pushes" for solar energy technology that I witnessed in
over 35 years of involvement in thin film deposition technology.
Ovshinsky's solar panels were made of amorphous silicon and were the
"state-of-the-art" at that time. If memory serves, efficiency was
about 15 percent and cost per watt was around $5.00 ... maybe a little
more. Our meetings were centered on production vacuum deposition
equipment needed to produce the panels. Interest faded quickly in
solar energy however and nothing ever developed. Ovshinshy is
credited with many other successful inventions in the technical
discipline of material science and amorphous silicon solar panels are
still in production.

Then, in 1996, I met a kook by the name of Lawrence Curtin. The
term "kook" is not used in a despairingly way ... he admits he's a
kook.
He's the brother or first cousin (can't remember which) of Jane
Curtin, the actress, best known for her role as one of the original
cast members of "Saturday Night Live" and later on "Third Rock from
the Sun".

Anyway, Lawrence Curtin is a self taught chemist, scientist, author,
and general jack-of-all-trades who excelled at anything he puts his
mind to. He is one of those people who are so creative and brilliant
that it sometimes borders on being a certified nut.

He had developed, on his own, a new type of photovoltaic cell that
could be made in thin, flexible strips. He showed me some and showed
me the test data on them which was very impressive. In high volume
production, the cost looked to be about 77 cents/watt. Long story
short, he and I entered into an agreement whereby my company would
build the production equipment and provide the necessary space for it,
subject to him securing additional adequate funding. As a good faith
gesture, I invested $10,000 into the "joint venture". It never
materialized and to his credit he returned the $10K a couple of years
later. Last I knew, he was alive and well down in Florida, still
inventing new kinds of photovoltaic devices, but none have yet solved
the world's energy dependence on fossil fuels.

That experience was during the second solar "hype" that I witnessed.
It lasted about 2-3 years.

Now we are in another period of interest and focus on solar as a
"green" alternative. The company I once owned was purchased by a
major German technology company in 2006, solely to pursue solar energy
markets and formed an alliance with the world's largest manufacturer
of commercial solar panels. It hasn't worked out this time either
and they are scrambling for more of the traditional systems work that
the company was built on.

I am not totally down on solar. It has it's promises and
applications, but I seriously doubt it will ever mature to be a major
source of energy relative to the demand. There's also another aspect
of it that I think about sometimes. I mentioned this once before,
but history shows that very often a new technological advancement that
solves one environmental problem ends up causing another. If we
convert thousands (or millions) of square miles to solar energy farms,
what effect will that have on the climate and the environment?
Sunlight causes photosynthesis in plants, generating oxygen.
What happens if we deplete that process too much by robbing the energy
to charge our battery powered cars instead?

Maybe I am a kook too.

wrote in message ...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't work?
Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt
more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?



I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge plywood
topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and ran
it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool, through
the pvc and back to the pool. I had thermocouples on the PVC inlet
and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. During the day it
often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as measured at
the outlet. If I shut the pump off for an hour or two, the water in
the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. It never
heated the pool. Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU electric pool
heater. That did the trick.

In article ,
says...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?



I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

But Scotty says that FOX says that it won't work!

Eisboch wrote:


wrote in message ...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't work?
Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?



I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge plywood
topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and ran
it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool, through
the pvc and back to the pool. I had thermocouples on the PVC inlet
and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. During the day it
often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as measured at
the outlet. If I shut the pump off for an hour or two, the water in
the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. It never
heated the pool. Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU electric pool
heater. That did the trick.




I'd hate to see that electric bill. Let me guess - an extra $400/month
in the winter?

"Earl" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:


wrote in message ...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't
work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on
EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt
more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?



I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck
a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use
a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates
too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge
plywood topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and
ran it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool,
through the pvc and back to the pool. I had thermocouples on the
PVC inlet and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. During
the day it often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as
measured at the outlet. If I shut the pump off for an hour or two,
the water in the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was
turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. It
never heated the pool. Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU
electric pool heater. That did the trick.




I'd hate to see that electric bill. Let me guess - an extra
$400/month
in the winter?

-----------------------------------------------

No, I don't remember it being that high. It ran for a solid week to
get the pool temperature up,
but once there it only had to run to recover from any losses during
the evening.
Believe me, if it were $400 per month, I wouldn't have bothered.

Eisboch wrote:


"Earl" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:


wrote in message ...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't
work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?



I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge plywood
topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and ran
it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool,
through the pvc and back to the pool. I had thermocouples on the
PVC inlet and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. During
the day it often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as
measured at the outlet. If I shut the pump off for an hour or two,
the water in the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was
turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. It
never heated the pool. Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU electric
pool heater. That did the trick.




I'd hate to see that electric bill. Let me guess - an extra $400/month
in the winter?

-----------------------------------------------

No, I don't remember it being that high. It ran for a solid week to
get the pool temperature up,
but once there it only had to run to recover from any losses during
the evening.
Believe me, if it were $400 per month, I wouldn't have bothered.


I ran mine for two weeks in the winter when some friends were in town
and it was in the mid 60's at night. My bill for that month was $700.
It would have been cheaper to buy a room at a local hotel so they had
pool access! Not as fun, though...

On Sep 5, 9:02*pm, Earl wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"Earl" *wrote in message
m...

Eisboch wrote:

wrote in messagenews:u0oa481vp52h48ddkqtkrdtmbkdacci84o@4ax .com...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't
work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?

I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge plywood
topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. * Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and ran
it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool,
through the pvc and back to the pool. * I had thermocouples on the
PVC inlet and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. *During
the day it often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as
measured at the outlet. * If I shut the pump off for an hour or two,
the water in the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was
turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. *It
never heated the pool. * Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU electric
pool heater. *That did the trick.

I'd hate to see that electric bill. *Let me guess - an extra $400/month
in the winter?

-----------------------------------------------

No, I don't remember it being that high. *It ran for a solid week to
get the pool temperature up,
but once there it only had to run to recover from any losses during
the evening.
Believe me, if it were $400 per month, I wouldn't have bothered.

I ran mine for two weeks in the winter when some friends were in town
and it was in the mid 60's at night. *My bill for that month was $700.
It would have been cheaper to buy a room at a local hotel so they had
pool access! *Not as fun, though...

What's wrong with mid 60F water.
Y'all sure have gone and gotten sissified.

On 9/5/2012 8:46 PM, North Star wrote:
On Sep 5, 9:02 pm, Earl wrote:
Eisboch wrote:

"Earl" wrote in message
...

Eisboch wrote:

wrote in messagenews:u0oa481vp52h48ddkqtkrdtmbkdacci84o@4ax .com...

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 15:46:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 03 Sep 2012 13:07:01 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 3 Sep 2012 07:59:29 -0400, iBoaterer wrote:

Solar doesn't work? Wind energy doesn't work? Nuclear doesn't
work? Yep,
you are insane all right.

They "work" they just don't make economic sense.

===

I'm thinking of doing a small scale solar electric project just for
grins since I've got a nice south facing roof and plenty of that
famous Florida sunshine.

The price of panels is now down to about $1/watt if you buy on EBAY.
System costs for batteries/inverters/wiring/installation no doubt more
than double or triple the panel cost but I don't know how much.

At what price point can we get a decent ROI assuming 10 cents a KWH
from LCEC and a 12 to 15 year system life?

I just looked at that Ebay ad. They are a pretty good deal at a buck a
watt.
The real plan these days is to ditch the whole battery thing and use a
grid tie inverter. That is really the only way to get the rebates too.
It is worth looking at if the $1 a watt thing is true.
My first PV project will be a solar pool pump.

The other issue is finding a roofer who will guarantee a roof with
collectors on it.
My pool collectors are on a pan roof over a shelter I really don't
care that much about. I am out of real estate there and I don't even
have as many collectors as I want to heat the pool.
It does a good job on the spa tho.

---------------------------------------------------------

I fooled around with a home-made pool heater in Jupiter, Florida. I
coiled about 200 feet of 3/4" ID black PVC tubing onto a huge plywood
topped frame that I also painted black to increase the total
emissivity. The frame was angled to get the most direct exposure to
the sun. Put a small, half horsepower sump pump in the pool and ran
it all day during daylight hours, cycling water from the pool,
through the pvc and back to the pool. I had thermocouples on the
PVC inlet and outlets to measure the delta T across the PVC. During
the day it often raised the water temperature about 2-3 degrees as
measured at the outlet. If I shut the pump off for an hour or two,
the water in the PVC got hot enough to scald you when the pump was
turned back on.

Problem was, this was during the winter months and anything gained
during the day was quickly lost at night due to evaporation. It
never heated the pool. Gave up and installed a 150,000 BTU electric
pool heater. That did the trick.

I'd hate to see that electric bill. Let me guess - an extra $400/month
in the winter?

-----------------------------------------------

No, I don't remember it being that high. It ran for a solid week to
get the pool temperature up,
but once there it only had to run to recover from any losses during
the evening.
Believe me, if it were $400 per month, I wouldn't have bothered.

I ran mine for two weeks in the winter when some friends were in town
and it was in the mid 60's at night. My bill for that month was $700.
It would have been cheaper to buy a room at a local hotel so they had
pool access! Not as fun, though...

What's wrong with mid 60F water.
Y'all sure have gone and gotten sissified.

Civilized would be more like it. Most folks don't go for your inuit
lifestyle.

On Wed, 05 Sep 2012 17:46:35 -0700, North Star wrote:


What's wrong with mid 60F water.
Y'all sure have gone and gotten sissified.

It's a Florida thing. If you go down there in the winter, the locals
will be wearing their winter jackets, sometimes down jackets. The
tourists from Michigan will be bare chested, riding in the back of a
pickup truck, heading to the beach for a swim.