Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

Whilst it may not answer your particular problem may I suggest that you
visit the link below. Whilst the information is aimed at parents there
are some guidelines on choosing the right paddle put together by the
GB national coaches which does give some info on adult paddles.
The Lightning is a scaled down K1 racing boat which was designed to
introduce young people into the sport. Tomorrow ( Sunday ) I will be
at a regatta with 60/70 youngsters aged 7 to 12 who are competing in a
national competition introduced three years ago - many have graduated
into youth competition - the future international competitors will come
from this. The enthusiasm has to be experienced - our problem is that we
have more youngsters coming through than we cope with.

http://www.lightnings.co.uk/

Frank Healy


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Thanks Frank for the attempt...not much help to me here on this side of the big
pond, though, I'm afraid. Brasca? Lettmann? Not familiar with those brands
over here, and I'm unlikely to make the effort to purchase one...would rather
find out what it is I'm doing wrong witht the AT4 I already have! Anyone have
any other possibilities for solutions? I remember a time when technical
inquiries on RBP were answered with a plethora of (often differing) viewpoints
that the inquiree (that's me) could select or reject as valid or not...anybody
else listening?


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

Sorry it did not help - it was published to assist the youngsters who
attended a coaching day at a regatta last year. One of the GB coaches
gave a talk to parents and when the website was set up earlier this
year the information was published for their benefit. All the kids
who have access to email subscribe and get a regular newsletter.
May get some results if you put the same query on UK rec boats site.
I suspect that one problem is that you have gone straight in with them.
I have tonight purchased a new set of paddles for my grandaughter and
she will spend several sessions getting used to them before she races.
This will entail sessions with one of our coaching team working with her
and the others who have purchased them. One point that was made at the
coaching day was that many people paddle with what they are given and
that is why so many have difficulties. There is a science to picking
the correct paddle. Will do some research and post a link if I find
anything that may be of help. Meantime I would suggest you revert back
to your old ones for now and enjoy your paddling.

Frank Healy




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Frank Healy wrote:

http://www.lightnings.co.uk/ Adults Paddles Guidelines PDF

Sorry it did not help - it was published to assist the youngsters who
attended a coaching day at a regatta last year. One of the GB coaches
gave a talk to parents and when the website was set up earlier this
year the information was published for their benefit...

Frank, do you (or the kids) use bent shafts in competition?

What are your opinions about feather angle? Do competitors
decide for themselves? What is the most common choice?

"Bill Tuthill" wrote in message




Frank, do you (or the kids) use bent shafts in competition?

What are your opinions about feather angle? Do competitors
decide for themselves? What is the most common choice?


No bent shafts are not used in sprint - at least I have never seen
anyone use them. I have just purchased a new paddle for my grandaughter
which is being set at 65deg against the standard 90deg - many of the
problems asociated with injury are due to incorrect paddling action. If
you study any sprint/marathon competition videos then you will see
people paddling in a style that has a great deal of scientific research
behind it. When you are competing for Olympic Gold you ensure that you
are using the most effective stroke. At present one of our coaching team
is working with the youngsters to ensure that they paddle correctly.
This will reduce the risk of injury. When I moved into racing I needed
to relearn much that I had been taught, it took a while to perfect my
paddling technique but I found that I could paddle faster and further
with less effort at the end. With regard to how much of the blade goes
in the water this is a red herring. If you only need half the blade size
why not reduce the size of the blade? - The answer is to get decent
coaching and you will then get the maximum benefit. The problem with
being taught by people who have picked it up with no formal teaching is
they teach their bad habits.

Frank Healy


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See ATs website
www.atpaddles.com

At 6'2", according to their sizing chart, you are betwix and between a
197 and 200 cm for the AT4 River.

Some possibilities:
1) grip is in the wrong place
2) grip is too hard
3) blade angle / grip angle not right / unaccustomed for you.

The grip area is not right where the shaft goes into the paddle... it
is up on the deflected bit - in between the blade neck and the main
straight part of the paddle.

I have found with some AT paddles that the shaft is kind of slick -
waxing up the grip area with some surfboard wax helps make the grip
tackier - which means that you don't have to grip it so hard. The
forearm is what pumps out when you grip too tightly.

And, it could be that, for your anatomy, AT's bent shaft design just
isn't right for you. Bent shafts are basically designed to allieviate
stress in the wrists - if you don't have any kind of history of RSI
type pain in the wrists - then there isn't much reason to go with an
ergo paddle.

I notice with an ergo paddle that some braces (skulling low, can't
recall if it is on the control or the off side) is actually harder to
do with an ergo paddle than with a straight shaft paddle.

The blade area could possibly be getting to you... the AT4 River has a
large blade (800 cm2). the largest (along with the ATX series) of all
of their blades. Sometimes blade area can cause joint stress, esp.
with a fairly stiff (carbon) shaft.

good luck... try the wax as a cheap mitigation attempt.

Ted

On 02 Jul 2004 19:32:41 GMT, (WILDH2PRO) wrote:

Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

Thanks for the replies, Frank and Theodore. Until I figure out what's going on
I've gone back to my straight shaft Werner Freestyle--only prob is, it's
cracked about half way around the circumference, which relegates me to only the
relatively easier rivers (wouldn't want to have my paddle break on a class 4-5
wilderness run!). Thanks again!

Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

(ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)

Another possibility: I visited AT's web site and read with horror Jimmy
Blakeney's product revue of the AT2--in the last paragraph he states:

"So, the two biggest reasons I like this paddle are its comfort/grip (combined
w/the known benefit of a bentshaft) and its smooth feel in the water and quick
stroke rate. It feels very balanced from the moment you pick it up, just make
sure your holding it the right way (low volume part of blade on the bottom). As

I've said before, any decent paddle will work, but the differences are in the
details, sometimes very important details."

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
looks like...waaaaa!

ORIGINAL POST:
Please help! It's like this: I finally go to a bent shaft (an AT4 River)
design after 6+ years of using straight shaft kayak paddles and find myself on
Virginia's Whitetop Laurel (a personal first 'D'!) after extensive rains last
Saturday. Somewhere about halfway through the 13-mile run--a fine choice for
an inaugural run with my new paddle, I might add, or so I thought--I began
feeling a pronounced pain in my right (power side) elbow, concentrating towards
the outside of it. Next morning the pain was so intense I had to lay off of
paddling--ARGGGHH! Vitamin "I" didn't even help, and {unfortunately} there
were no more potent pharmaceticals available. Day after, I paddled the
Nolichucky and by the time I took off my elbow had swollen to about the size of
a tennis ball! I THOUGHT I was gripping it correctly, basically where the
shaft enters the first arm of the "V"...is this wrong? Didn't run into any
trouble on either rivers, didn't hit it on any rocks--what gives? It's a 200cm
paddle but I am 6'4" with fairly long arms...could the paddle still be too
long? Over the years I've actually been steadily shortening my paddle lengths,
I started up around 206cm!! Maybe it's time to go with a 196 or 198?? Any
suggestions are appreciated (and DON'T say "give up paddling", pleeeze!)


Jeff Oxley
Recovering aqua-holic--and relapsing again (full time)
Editor, Blue Ridge River Runners (part time)

WILDH2PRO wrote:
(ORIGINAL POST AT BOTTOM)

....stuff deleted

So, according to that (very credible) source, I've been using the paddle upside
down?! I've been paddling with the higher area half of the blade (assuming the
ridge where the shaft combines with the blade is the dividing point between the
two) facing down, just like my last paddle, a similarly asymetric Werner
Freestyle! Granted, the review is for the AT2, not the AT4, but I would have
to imagine the designs are similar enough to employ the same paddling style.

Any of you AT paddlers out ther care to weigh in on which side of the blade
goes down? Haven't paddled for a week, and even so, whatever I'd done to my
elbow doesn't seem to be getting any better. No paddling for me for a while, it
looks like...waaaaa!

....stuff deleted

Most paddles I've seen are to be used with the smallest blade surface
down. The reason for this is that you don't need a lot of paddle in the
water to propel a boat. I'm still using the original paddles I purchased
years ago and I find that I put no more than 1/2 the blade in the water
at a time and could easily go to a paddle that uses considerably less
blade. Swimmers (world class freestylers), for example, propel
themselves at close to 5 MPH using a paddle the size of, oh my, your
hand. When training with paddles on their hands, they tend to get
tendonitis due to the excess stress.

Now a boat is considerably larger, but WW paddlers routinely roll their
boat using their hands as well. How much blade is necessary is probably
considerably less than what most of us think. I have taken my son's
shorter, narrower, blade out and found that I liked the response. I tire
less quickly, use less muscle, and have greater turnover (more
revolutions per minute). This is consistent with what is observed in
similar power sports (such as cycling) where a faster cadence and lower
gearing results in a more satisfying and comfortable expenditure of
energy, even though it seems less efficient. Cyclists used to recommend
an RPM of 60-80, but modern thinking puts a comfortable cadence between
80-100, with 120 seen in some individuals. I prefer a cadence of 90-95
and find that I am working too hard at lower cadences.

The end result, however, is the same. It takes X amount of energy to
move a particular hull 1 mile. You can do this with a fat, long paddle,
or a short, skinny one. The number of calories expended is virtually
identical. It comes down to which is more comfortable for the paddler
and which leads to a reduction of stresses on the anatomy.

Rick