Hi,
I'm considering my first Royalex boat. I've narrowed my choices down
to an Old Town Penobscot 16' for a whole lot of reasons.

The local REI has two of these exactly as I would want them. The
non-blemished one is on sale for their anniversary sale at $799 (down
from nearly a grand). So good so far. But, they also have a blemished
one that appears to have voids in the inner foam core on one side
right where the gunnells meet the flat bottom (tumblehome area???)
Anyway, these depressions are a series of penny sized to maybe very
small egg sized depressions in an area that's maybe 4-5" long on one
side only. The assist. mgr. said he'd take off another $100 for that.
These depressed areas do not penetrate either the skin or the
interior, and are not soft at all.

I've pressed both on them and beside them as hard as I can with my
thumbs and can't feel any give whatsover. It appears to me that these
are areas where the mold somehow left voids in the inner foam core.
They do not appear to be actual dents, since there is no abrasion on
the skin. On the interior, they're not visual or even tactile. The
interior really seems in good shape. The rest of the exterior also
seems in really good shape.

Tomorrow I'm buying one of these Penobscots. The question is which
one? Would the described depressions keep you from wanting a boat at
what amounts to 30% off? A $700 Penobscot with a 100%, no time limit
customer satisfaction guarantee has it's appeal to me.

What do ya'll think?

Thanks very, very much for any prompt replies.
Mike

Mike Swaim wrote:
Hi,
I'm considering my first Royalex boat. I've narrowed my choices down
to an Old Town Penobscot 16' for a whole lot of reasons.

The local REI has two of these exactly as I would want them. The
non-blemished one is on sale for their anniversary sale at $799 (down
from nearly a grand). So good so far. But, they also have a blemished
one that appears to have voids in the inner foam core on one side
right where the gunnells meet the flat bottom (tumblehome area???)
Anyway, these depressions are a series of penny sized to maybe very
small egg sized depressions in an area that's maybe 4-5" long on one
side only. The assist. mgr. said he'd take off another $100 for that.
These depressed areas do not penetrate either the skin or the
interior, and are not soft at all.

I've pressed both on them and beside them as hard as I can with my
thumbs and can't feel any give whatsover. It appears to me that these
are areas where the mold somehow left voids in the inner foam core.
They do not appear to be actual dents, since there is no abrasion on
the skin. On the interior, they're not visual or even tactile. The
interior really seems in good shape. The rest of the exterior also
seems in really good shape.

Tomorrow I'm buying one of these Penobscots. The question is which
one? Would the described depressions keep you from wanting a boat at
what amounts to 30% off? A $700 Penobscot with a 100%, no time limit
customer satisfaction guarantee has it's appeal to me.

What do ya'll think?

Thanks very, very much for any prompt replies.
Mike
What you are probably seeing isn't a void, but a point where the foam
didn't expand fully. Royalex is a sandwich of material, the inner
layers expanding under heat to give it rigidity. They shouldn't
compromise the strength, and you'll put more dents&scratches in the boat
yourself in the first river run. I'm having trouble understanding the
location of the dent. If it is above the waterline, no big deal. If it
is below waterline, it might be annoying, but again - no big deal.


Marsh Jones
Minnesota
P-16 in the garage.

I'll take a stab at this- since you are in a hurry- tho I am sorta
guessing.

First off- are you sure about the warrenty thing on a blem? I'd get
that in writing.

Those depressed areas could have occured if OT overheated the sheet
just before they formed it. Unlikely that the Royalex manufacturer
would have let that go from their factory otherwise

I am a little confused about where these depressions are. You say,
where the gunwales meet the flat bottom. But the gunwales are the top
peices of wood (or plastic) that run the length of the boat on each
side. They don't meet the flat bottom. Do you mean- where the sides
meet the bottom?? I'm guessing that is what you mean. Let's call
that the "chines".

There could very well be increased flex in the area of the
depressions. No way to tell without getting the boat in the water,
with a couple of big fellows on board, to jump up and down a little.
Watch for oilcanning, where the bottom jumps in and out as much as 3
or 4 inches. Oilcanning shows up on Royalex boats sometimes anyway.
It may be worse on this blem.

On the other hand, I could be all wet. We could say that OT would not
sell a blem with more than cosmetic problems.

I dunno- if it was my hundred bucks- I am pretty cheap. but I think
I'd go for the non-blem this time.

Hey, that should be a good all around boat for you, anyway. I've
paddled them, they are not bad at all. Better than a Discovery,
anyway.


-Dan V.


On Sat, 22 May 2004 00:38:02 GMT, (Mike Swaim) wrote:

Hi,
I'm considering my first Royalex boat. I've narrowed my choices down
to an Old Town Penobscot 16' for a whole lot of reasons.

The local REI has two of these exactly as I would want them. The
non-blemished one is on sale for their anniversary sale at $799 (down
from nearly a grand). So good so far. But, they also have a blemished
one that appears to have voids in the inner foam core on one side
right where the gunnells meet the flat bottom (tumblehome area???)
Anyway, these depressions are a series of penny sized to maybe very
small egg sized depressions in an area that's maybe 4-5" long on one
side only. The assist. mgr. said he'd take off another $100 for that.
These depressed areas do not penetrate either the skin or the
interior, and are not soft at all.

I've pressed both on them and beside them as hard as I can with my
thumbs and can't feel any give whatsover. It appears to me that these
are areas where the mold somehow left voids in the inner foam core.
They do not appear to be actual dents, since there is no abrasion on
the skin. On the interior, they're not visual or even tactile. The
interior really seems in good shape. The rest of the exterior also
seems in really good shape.

Tomorrow I'm buying one of these Penobscots. The question is which
one? Would the described depressions keep you from wanting a boat at
what amounts to 30% off? A $700 Penobscot with a 100%, no time limit
customer satisfaction guarantee has it's appeal to me.

What do ya'll think?

Thanks very, very much for any prompt replies.
Mike

Thanks, folks!

Yes, my mistake on the location. It's where the sides meet the bottom.
If it was higher up, I wouldn't be as concerned. But, it's right where
it chages shape in the side to bottom transition, right in the middle
along the length, ie. almost under the portage yoke, below the water
line for sure.

The depressions are only on the outside, and as mentioned, they don't
penetrate either the skin or the interior.

Thanks,
Mike


On Fri, 21 May 2004 22:44:57 -0500, Dan Valleskey valleskey at
comcast dot net wrote:


I'll take a stab at this- since you are in a hurry- tho I am sorta
guessing.

First off- are you sure about the warrenty thing on a blem? I'd get
that in writing.

Those depressed areas could have occured if OT overheated the sheet
just before they formed it. Unlikely that the Royalex manufacturer
would have let that go from their factory otherwise

I am a little confused about where these depressions are. You say,
where the gunwales meet the flat bottom. But the gunwales are the top
peices of wood (or plastic) that run the length of the boat on each
side. They don't meet the flat bottom. Do you mean- where the sides
meet the bottom?? I'm guessing that is what you mean. Let's call
that the "chines".

There could very well be increased flex in the area of the
depressions. No way to tell without getting the boat in the water,
with a couple of big fellows on board, to jump up and down a little.
Watch for oilcanning, where the bottom jumps in and out as much as 3
or 4 inches. Oilcanning shows up on Royalex boats sometimes anyway.
It may be worse on this blem.

On the other hand, I could be all wet. We could say that OT would not
sell a blem with more than cosmetic problems.

I dunno- if it was my hundred bucks- I am pretty cheap. but I think
I'd go for the non-blem this time.

Hey, that should be a good all around boat for you, anyway. I've
paddled them, they are not bad at all. Better than a Discovery,
anyway.


-Dan V.

"Mike Swaim" wrote in message
...
Thanks, folks!

Yes, my mistake on the location. It's where the sides meet the bottom.
If it was higher up, I wouldn't be as concerned. But, it's right where
it chages shape in the side to bottom transition, right in the middle
along the length, ie. almost under the portage yoke, below the water
line for sure.

The depressions are only on the outside, and as mentioned, they don't
penetrate either the skin or the interior.

Spend the extra $100. Sounds odd that OT would let something that obvious
out with their name on it.

My vote,
Fred Klingener

"Mike Swaim" wrote in message
...
Thanks, folks!

Yes, my mistake on the location. It's where the sides meet the bottom.
If it was higher up, I wouldn't be as concerned. But, it's right where
it chages shape in the side to bottom transition, right in the middle
along the length, ie. almost under the portage yoke, below the water
line for sure.

The depressions are only on the outside, and as mentioned, they don't
penetrate either the skin or the interior.

Thanks,
Mike


On Fri, 21 May 2004 22:44:57 -0500, Dan Valleskey valleskey at
comcast dot net wrote:


I'll take a stab at this- since you are in a hurry- tho I am sorta
guessing.

First off- are you sure about the warrenty thing on a blem? I'd get
that in writing.

Those depressed areas could have occured if OT overheated the sheet
just before they formed it. Unlikely that the Royalex manufacturer
would have let that go from their factory otherwise

I am a little confused about where these depressions are. You say,
where the gunwales meet the flat bottom. But the gunwales are the top
peices of wood (or plastic) that run the length of the boat on each
side. They don't meet the flat bottom. Do you mean- where the sides
meet the bottom?? I'm guessing that is what you mean. Let's call
that the "chines".

There could very well be increased flex in the area of the
depressions. No way to tell without getting the boat in the water,
with a couple of big fellows on board, to jump up and down a little.
Watch for oilcanning, where the bottom jumps in and out as much as 3
or 4 inches. Oilcanning shows up on Royalex boats sometimes anyway.
It may be worse on this blem.

On the other hand, I could be all wet. We could say that OT would not
sell a blem with more than cosmetic problems.

I dunno- if it was my hundred bucks- I am pretty cheap. but I think
I'd go for the non-blem this time.

Hey, that should be a good all around boat for you, anyway. I've
paddled them, they are not bad at all. Better than a Discovery,
anyway.


-Dan V.



The boat probably got banged somewhere along the line at those locations.
I've got them on mine after many years of use. On a new boat I wouldn't
accept it.

Well, I went back to REI today, and had them get the "1st quality" OT
Penobscot down from the rafters. It too had a few dings and scrapes. Those
were minor compared to the ones on the "blemished model". But, after getting
several reassurances that REI would stand behind the boat for as long as I
own it, and that I could return it at any time, for any reason, I went ahead
and got the more dinged up one. By that time, I had the cart full of 2 new
PFDs, and 2 new laminated Bending Branches paddles and by getting the more
dinged up one, I essentially got some of the accessories for free. That's
one way of looking at it, anyway. I figure if this boat gives me any grief,
I'll take it back. But, honestly I'm not expecting it to. In fact, after
being on the roof rack of my vehicle in the sun all afternoon, it almost
appears to my deceiving eyes that the depressions are getting just a tiny,
tiny bit shallower.

Thanks for the responses to this query. This boat is already such an
improvement over my previous 85lb plastic bathtub, that I bet I'll be out on
the water more often. And no matter how one looks at it, that's the main
thing.

Mike Swaim

"Mike Swaim" wrote in message
...

Well, I went back to REI today, and had them get the "1st quality" OT
Penobscot down from the rafters. It too had a few dings and scrapes. Those
were minor compared to the ones on the "blemished model". But, after
getting
several reassurances that REI would stand behind the boat for as long as I
own it, and that I could return it at any time, for any reason, I went
ahead
and got the more dinged up one. By that time, I had the cart full of 2 new
PFDs, and 2 new laminated Bending Branches paddles and by getting the more
dinged up one, I essentially got some of the accessories for free. That's
one way of looking at it, anyway. I figure if this boat gives me any
grief,
I'll take it back. But, honestly I'm not expecting it to. In fact, after
being on the roof rack of my vehicle in the sun all afternoon, it almost
appears to my deceiving eyes that the depressions are getting just a tiny,
tiny bit shallower.

Thanks for the responses to this query. This boat is already such an
improvement over my previous 85lb plastic bathtub, that I bet I'll be out
on
the water more often. And no matter how one looks at it, that's the main
thing.

Mike Swaim



Mike,
Enjoy your boat.

"Mike Swaim" wrote in message
...

But, honestly I'm not expecting it to. In fact, after
being on the roof rack of my vehicle in the sun all afternoon, it almost
appears to my deceiving eyes that the depressions are getting just a tiny,
tiny bit shallower.


Enjoy your new boat. I suggest taking a rubbing of the dings (lay a piece of
paper over them, and rub a pencil on it) to see exactly how large they are.
If it is indeed caused by a spot where the foam did not expand, its entirely
likely that a week in the open sun will exand them. It would be nice to
compare rubbings over a month or so, to see if that's happening.

--riverman

"riverman" wrote in message ...

Enjoy your new boat. I suggest taking a rubbing of the dings (lay a piece of
paper over them, and rub a pencil on it) to see exactly how large they are.
If it is indeed caused by a spot where the foam did not expand, its entirely
likely that a week in the open sun will exand them. It would be nice to
compare rubbings over a month or so, to see if that's happening.

Those sound like they might well be "bruises" on the Royalex rather
than voids in the ABS substrate.

Since Spartec/Uniroyal changed the composition of Royalex sheets back
in the early 90's the material has been much less hardy than the
pre-90 sheets.

I wonder in fact if there was yet another, more recent, change in the
composition of Royalex sheets. Our newest canoes all developed similar
depressions after just a few river runs, and many of those "bruises"
(which are noticable only on the exterior skin of the ABS) were along
the chines where the boat pressed up against some obstruction. Those
bruises or depressions have never popped back out after full
sun/warmth exposure.

More and more I appreciate pre-90 Royalex; our canoes from the 80's
are much tougher and take a licking without bruising. Our canoes from
the early and mid 90's are less hardy, and our newest Royalex boats
are wimps compared to the durability of the old Royalex.