William R. Watt wrote:

Brian Nystrom ) writes:


It would cost no more to custom design a plywood kayak built with
computer cut panels than to design a mass produced plywood kayak
built with computer cut panels.

How do you figure that?

companies like Chesapeke(?) Light Craft and Pygmy Boats sell plywood boats
and kits make from computer cut panels. people buy the boats or they
can assemble the kits themselves and save a lot of money.

Compared to what? When you factor in all the tools and other supplies,
plus the time involved, there is no savings at all. Building boats is a
labor of love, not an economic expedient.

More importantly, what percentage of kayakers build their own boats? For
that matter, what percentage is even capable of it or has a place to do
it? You seem to forget that we live in a country where most people can't
even change the oil in their cars, let alone build kayaks.

While it's certainly possible to custom design and cut panels for stitch
and glue boats, no one does so. The closest thing to it is Newfound
Woodworks will take a customer's design and make the panels for them,
but there are even fewer people who can design a boat than there are
than can build them.

... The most efficient hulls (least wetted surface
for a given displacement) are rounded in shape, which cannot be built
from flat panels. The cost to produce a mold for a one-off design is
prohibitive. One could have a boat custom designed and strip built, but
how many people are going to pay in excess of $5000 for a kayak?

yes, avoiding moulds for building resin boats one off was my point.
you can custom design and build a plywood or a "stripper" boat cheaper.

No kidding, but it's even more complex and time consuming to build one
than it is to do a S&G. BTW, I do build skin-on-frame boats, so I have
an idea what's involved.

as for the preformance of flat panel (hard chine) hulls its actually the
turbulence at the chines which creates more drag at higher speeds compared
to smooth chined hulls. the wetted surface vs wave-making again.

While turbulence is certainly a possibility with a poor design, it's not
a given. The wetted surface area is what makes the difference. Why do
you think that EVERY racing boat made has a rounded hull? Read the
manufacturer's literatue and read basic information on boat design and
they all say the same thing: round hulls have less surface area for a
given displacement than hard chine hulls. A spherical hull would have
the absolute least wetted area, but obviously, it would no longer be a
kayak or canoe.

some places you read about wetted surface vs wave-making. other places
its wetted surface vs residual resistance, where residual resistance is
any kind of drag that's not surface friction and includes drag due to
wave-making, poor tracking, hard chines, etc.

That's not the point, you can have two boats with the same wavemaking
resistance and one with a rounded hull will have less drag than one with
a hard chine hull, due strictly to the difference in wetted surface area.

Such an approach to designing would answer the
buyer's perrenial question "which kayak is right for me?".

Not if they don't understand the information. Most won't and they're not
going to be willing to learn about hydrodynamics in order to do so.

all part of the education of the paddling public.

I agree with everything you wrote below about the motivation to
buy a kayak but when it comes to the actual purchase people do ask about
which kayak is best for them, likely because they will be spending so much
money on the boat and accessories.

I think people can relate to how much power it should take a person of a
given weight to get the boat to go a certain speed than to how many pounds
of resitance the boat should have at a that speed, especially when you
tell them how much power an average person can sustain paddling. I also
think people could relate better to how tall they should be or how much
they should weigh for a given kayak than just to say "for light people" as
the brochures usually do. The data could be on a website rather than print
a more costly booklet to replace the brochure. All of thse numbers should
be avialable from desingers now, just restate and pass along to buyers.

It's very obvious that you've never worked in retail. I have
extensively, including owning a retail business. Your perceptions about
the buying public couldn't be farther off the mark. Most people,
especially first time buyers of a product, are CLUELESS. Most simply
want someone to guide them to a suitable product quickly and not screw
them over. It really IS that simple! If you were to start talking about
horsepower and other technicalities, their eyes would quickly glaze over
and they'll find a reason to leave, after which they'll go buy elsewhere
from someone who doesn't bore or intimidate them. I know this because
I've worked in businesses where technical data was widely available and
we always took the approach of educating people as much as possible and
helping them make the right decision for themselves (consultative
selling). In doing so, you learn that there is a VERY fine line between
enough information and "information overload" and that it's different
for every customer. If someone comes in looking for "a yellow kayak",
they're not going to hang around while you explain advanced
hydrodynamics to them. You set them up the best you can, offer as much
information as they'll tolerate, take their money and let them be on
their way. I didn't like the way I was forced to do business in some
cases, but I figured that they were better off if they came to me and I
at least had the opportunity to offer them useful information, than if
they went and bought at one of the "Marts" from some bored high school
kid who couldn't care less.

While you and I and some others here may care about performance data,
it's pretty obvious that most kayak owners don't and never will.

I've actually seen a lot of queries about "what kayak is right for me" and
I suspect its because of the high cost of the boats which makes people stop
and think. Kayaks and canoes cost more than bikes, skis, and skateboards.

No, it's because most people have no clue what they need and they're
looking for someone to hold their hand through the buying process. It's
also because most are either too lazy or too disinterested to do any
research for themselves. Many simply aren't capable of understanding
technical data (or at least they're convinced that they're not). You may
not like it, but those are the hard facts of retail. People like you and
I and some others here are but a tiny minority of the buying public.
Only the niche market companies will bother to cater to us, because
that's what separates them from the mainstream.