(William R. Watt) wrote in
:

Brian Nystrom ) writes:

It would cost no more to custom design a plywood kayak built with
computer cut panels than to design a mass produced plywood kayak
built with computer cut panels.

How do you figure that?

companies like Chesapeke(?) Light Craft and Pygmy Boats sell plywood
boats and kits make from computer cut panels. people buy the boats or
they can assemble the kits themselves and save a lot of money.

Both CLC and Pygmy offer a line of designs that one can build either from
computer cut panels or from a set of plans and cut the panels according to
the plans. They don't offer custom designs. If for example, someone wanted
a CLC Northbay, but wanted it 21" wide instead of 20" and 17'6" long instead
of 18'6" long the only way they'd be able to do that is take the standard
set of plans, modify them, then cut the panels according to the modified
plans. CLC isn't going to provide a modified set of plans, nor would they
provide computer cut panels for a custom designed Northbay. We'll, they
might, but at a considerably higher price than what one would pay for a
standard CLC Northbay.

Even for the standard models, while the plans + materials or a kit costs
less than a similarly designed composite boat, when one adds in the cost of
tools necessary to build it, extras like varnish, and the cost of labor, I'm
not sure that in the end one will save "a lot of money".
]

... The most efficient hulls (least wetted surface
for a given displacement) are rounded in shape, which cannot be built
from flat panels. The cost to produce a mold for a one-off design is
prohibitive. One could have a boat custom designed and strip built,
but how many people are going to pay in excess of $5000 for a kayak?

yes, avoiding moulds for building resin boats one off was my point.
you can custom design and build a plywood or a "stripper" boat cheaper.

While many people can and do build plywood or stripper boats (I've built one
of each) most kayakers don't build their own boats. No matter what boat
anyone chooses to own there are trade-offs. Many don't have the space or
woodworking skills (or at least they think they don't) to build their own.
Many would rather pay the extra cost to have a boat built for them rather
than spend the time to do it themselves. In that case, they can buy a boat
built from a mold or have something custom built (to the tune of $5000+ for
a cedar stripper as Brian mentioned).

For many, the most efficient hull for flat out forward speed performance
might not be desirable. An efficient hull optomized for higher speeds is
going to have some trade offs in manoeveribility and stability. While there
are many kayakers for which a highly efficient hull optomized for paddling
at high speeds for long distances is very important, I would guess that most
kayakers want a boat does other things efficiently as well.

For example, one of the most popular production boats on the market is the
NDK Romany. There are certainly faster boats available, but the Romany is
"fast enough", is fairly manoeverable, handles rough water well, and is
constructed strong enough that it can handle a variety of paddling
environments.
Such an approach to designing would answer the buyer's perrenial
question "which kayak is right for me?".

Not if they don't understand the information. Most won't and they're
not going to be willing to learn about hydrodynamics in order to do
so.

all part of the education of the paddling public.

I would imagine that most of the paddling public isn't really interested in
hydrodynamics. It's a lot easier to go out, try a few boats, and buy the
one that fits their needs the best.

I think people can relate to how much power it should take a person of
a given weight to get the boat to go a certain speed than to how many
pounds of resitance the boat should have at a that speed, especially
when you tell them how much power an average person can sustain
paddling.

If paddlers were only concerned about paddling at a high speed for long
distances you might have a point, but paddling is much more than that.

I also think people could relate better to how tall they
should be or how much they should weigh for a given kayak than just to
say "for light people" as the brochures usually do.

While there are some that will buy a kayak based on the stats or brochure
(and the appearance of the boat), pretty much every paddler with experience
will recommend that one actually sit in a paddle a boat before buying it.
It doesn't take a brochure to tell me that a boat is too small if the
cockpit is so tight that it cuts off circulation to my legs.

I've actually seen a lot of queries about "what kayak is right for me"
and I suspect its because of the high cost of the boats which makes
people stop and think.

That question is typically asked by people that have very little experience
in kayaks, and is often accompanied with little addtional data that would
help answer the question. I've answered the question many times, and
usually recommended several models with the suggestion to try as many as
possible and decide for themselves what kayak is right for them.


Kayaks and canoes cost more than bikes, skis,
and skateboards.

I don't know what a skateboard costs but it's certainly possible to spend
more a bicycle or snow skis than on a kayak.

John Fereira ) writes:

Both CLC and Pygmy offer a line of designs that one can build either from
computer cut panels or from a set of plans and cut the panels according to

I didn't claim either company sold custom plans or kits. I only wrote that
it's possible to do cheaply becuase all that has to be done is to change a
few numbers in the design program and the computer cuts out the new boat
panels or station mould patterns. Plywood and stripper kayaks could be
custom made just like you buy a custom tailored business suit, but at
minimal extra cost.

Even for the standard models, while the plans + materials or a kit costs
less than a similarly designed composite boat, when one adds in the cost of
tools necessary to build it, extras like varnish, and the cost of labor, I'm
not sure that in the end one will save "a lot of money".

you save approx 1/3 off the cost of a stripper boat by building yourself.
that's why so many people do it. that's why Ted Moores is so popular.

For many, the most efficient hull for flat out forward speed performance
might not be desirable.

please show me where I claimed speed vs horsepower was the sole reason for
choosing a kayak. I do think speed is the principle reason people choose
kayaks over other boats like canoes and punts and for that reason I think
buyers should be presented with the information on how fast their kayak is
designed to go with different levels of effort.

If paddlers were only concerned about paddling at a high speed for long
distances you might have a point, but paddling is much more than that.

the point of this discussion about hull resistance and horsepower
requirement is how much more effort a person has to exert to keep up with
a group of paddlers. I don't know about paddling at high speed, just the
speed the gropup is paddling at. If you don't want to be exhausted at the
end of a day of paddling in a group then the power you have to put out to
maintain the group speed is the most important factor.

While there are some that will buy a kayak based on the stats or brochure
(and the appearance of the boat), pretty much every paddler with experience
will recommend that one actually sit in a paddle a boat before buying it.
It doesn't take a brochure to tell me that a boat is too small if the
cockpit is so tight that it cuts off circulation to my legs.

sadly, yes, that's how it is done now. but it doesn't have to be done that
way. last summer I was told by a couple of kayak fanatics in this very
newsgroup that it was wrong to choose a kayak based on how it felt and
that after one or two seasons such people are eager to buy the kayak they
should have bought in the first place. if sellers provided the design
range for paddler weight and dimensions potential buyers could quickly
narrow down the kayaks to the ones most suitable and they could choose
from among those kayaks. you may be aware of how igorant kayak sales staff
are. they are happy just to sell the kayak and cannot provide much in the
way of help to the buyer. buyers would be better off with relevant design
information.

That question is typically asked by people that have very little experience
in kayaks, and is often accompanied with little addtional data that would
help answer the question. I've answered the question many times, and
usually recommended several models with the suggestion to try as many as
possible and decide for themselves what kayak is right for them.

how many kayak buyers do you think are people with "very little experience
in kayks"? 80%? 90%? 95% people do generally know what they weigh and how
tall they are. people can take their own body measurements just like
people who buy skis and bicycles do. there are people who lurk in this
newsgroup who will say that telling people who have very littel expericne
to try kayaks for themselves in not good adivce. I tend to agree compared
to what they could do with more design information.

Kayaks and canoes cost more than bikes, skis,
and skateboards.


I don't know what a skateboard costs but it's certainly possible to spend
more a bicycle or snow skis than on a kayak.


if its possible it's out at the exteme end of the price range. compare
averages instead.

Here's an analogy. I chose my last two new automobiles by doing reasearch
at the public library and then went out and bought them. I've been driving
the most recent one for 15 years hope to keep driving it for years to
come. I understand that people buying automobiles today have even more
information available off the Interent than I had. However buying a new
automobile by going a dealership for a test drive is the worst possible
way of buyiung a new automobile that I can think of. Kayaks don't have the
volume and interest of automobiles but a better job can be done at no
extra cost providing relevant information for kayak buyers, information
which is paddler-oriented rather than boat oriented. Kayak sellers would
better serve their customers by concentrating more on the paddler and less
on the boat. that's why I suggest making power requriements, body weight,
and body size design information available to buyers. I'd certainly
provide horsepower rather than total hull resistance.


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