On 5-May-2004, (Eric) wrote:

Dan wrote:

Optical lens design is a mature technology.

Ah...'everything that can be invented, has been invented'.
Sorry, will never believe that...

Dan is essentially correct. There was a big revolution in lens
design when computers suddenly became cheap enough to allow lens
designers to crunch through lots of lens optimization to produce
a good lens. Before that, designing by hand was hit or miss.

Another big improvement was the use of computer controlled machinery
to produce quality aspheric lenses cheaply.

Incremental improvement in glass will let us creep along with better
lenses. If there's going to be a revolution in lens design, it will
have to be the result of some awesome new material. Working with
existing materials and just running computer programs has pretty
much run its course.

Significant improvements in lens design technology itself? - not
likely!

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

Significant improvements in lens design technology itself? - not
likely!

I can't help but to think that our increasing ability to manipulate
individual atoms will offer significant improvements in all
manufacturing processes.

But, if you and others wish to believe that it is impossible to offer a
waterproof, digital camera with a good 10x zoom, I cannot stop you - I
simply won't believe you. Mind if I take special note of this post for
potential use in the future?



--
== Eric Gorr ========= http://www.ericgorr.net ========= ICQ:9293199 ===
"Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
== Insults, like violence, are the last refuge of the incompetent... ===

Eric wrote:
Michael Daly wrote:


Significant improvements in lens design technology itself? - not
likely!


I can't help but to think that our increasing ability to manipulate
individual atoms will offer significant improvements in all
manufacturing processes.

But, if you and others wish to believe that it is impossible to offer a
waterproof, digital camera with a good 10x zoom, I cannot stop you - I
simply won't believe you. Mind if I take special note of this post for
potential use in the future?

The problem is that you're looking for cutting edge performance ("good"
10x zoom) and compact size in a niche market product (waterproof
cameras) AND you want it at a low price. Don't hold your breath! Nearly
anything is possible if you're willing to pay for it (Nasa could
probably build you the camera you want), but you're not.

The real question is: "Do you want to take photos now, or are you
willing to forego that while you wait for the "perfect" camera, which
may never materialize?" If we all waited for the "perfect" boat, none of
us would be paddling, would we? We all have our "Holy Grails", but at
some point, reality has to take over.

In digital cameras, the emphasis is on resolution, capture speed and
image storage capacity. There has been tremendous "trickle down" of high
end features into affordable cameras. Unfortunately, "waterproof" is way
down on the list of features that consumers demand.

Typically, consumers who want high zoom ratios (or think that they do)
are less interested in in image quality and aren't willing to spend
thousands of dollars to get a good, albeit bulky, lens. People who are
serious about photography either eschew high zoom ratios or accept the
weight, bulk and price of a good lens and accept that it's not going to
be waterproof. Consequently, it could be 5, 10, 20 or more years before
the product you want becomes available, if it ever does.

So you have a choice; you can have a 10X zoom in semi-bulky,
semi-expensive, not waterproof package, or you can have a lower zoom in
a small, inexpensive waterproof package. Or you can wait for your "Holy
Grail".

Since a high zoom ratio is not practical on the water anyway, your best
bet is probably to use a compact, waterproof, low zoom ratio camera on
the water and carry a digital SLR with a high zoom ratio lens (or a
small selection of lenses to cover the range you want) to use on land.
And don't forget to bring a monopod or tripod.

Brian Nystrom wrote:

So you have a choice; you can have a 10X zoom in semi-bulky,
semi-expensive, not waterproof package, or you can have a lower zoom in
a small, inexpensive waterproof package. Or you can wait for your "Holy
Grail".

I have already stated I will wait for the 'essentially impossible'. I
don't consider not spending money on a product I really don't want to be
a bad thing.

--
== Eric Gorr ========= http://www.ericgorr.net ========= ICQ:9293199 ===
"Therefore the considerations of the intelligent always include both
benefit and harm." - Sun Tzu
== Insults, like violence, are the last refuge of the incompetent... ===

On 6-May-2004, (Eric) wrote:

I have already stated I will wait for the 'essentially impossible'. I
don't consider not spending money on a product I really don't want to be
a bad thing.

This tells me that you're not interested in the photographs, you're only
interested in the gadget. Otherwise, Brian's advice is what most folks
would accept.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

On 6-May-2004, (Eric) wrote:

I have already stated I will wait for the 'essentially impossible'. I
don't consider not spending money on a product I really don't want to be
a bad thing.

This tells me that you're not interested in the photographs, you're only
interested in the gadget. Otherwise, Brian's advice is what most folks
would accept.

Noted and previously rejected.

Eric wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:


So you have a choice; you can have a 10X zoom in semi-bulky,
semi-expensive, not waterproof package, or you can have a lower zoom in
a small, inexpensive waterproof package. Or you can wait for your "Holy
Grail".


I have already stated I will wait for the 'essentially impossible'. I
don't consider not spending money on a product I really don't want to be
a bad thing.

If you know that what you want doesn't exist, why are you wasting our
time? Trolling will not ingratiate you with people here or anywhere else
on the web. Why don't you email camera manufacturers instead of wasting
bandwidth here?

Brian Nystrom wrote in message ...
Eric wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:


So you have a choice; you can have a 10X zoom in semi-bulky,
semi-expensive, not waterproof package, or you can have a lower zoom in
a small, inexpensive waterproof package. Or you can wait for your "Holy
Grail".


I have already stated I will wait for the 'essentially impossible'. I
don't consider not spending money on a product I really don't want to be
a bad thing.

If you know that what you want doesn't exist, why are you wasting our
time?

If I new it did not exist before I posted the question, I wouldn't
have asked the question. I have kept my eye out for such a camera, but
left open the possibility that I missed something.

I now know (or am sufficiently confident) it still does not exist
since the knowledgeable people here haven't been able to point me to
one.

People have merely wasted their time attempting me to convince me to
purchase a product I have time and time again clearly stated I am not
interested in. I do not know why they have done this and personally
find it rather weird, but then USENET is a strange place.

Most likely, sometime at the start of next season I will again ask the
same question in case someone has come across something that I have
not. If I happen across a camera that fits my stated parameters, I
will likely post a reference to it here.

Why don't you email camera manufacturers instead of wasting
bandwidth here?

I have done that as well for the ones I am familiar with...however, I
would not claim to be aware of every camera manufacturer.

On 6-May-2004, (Eric) wrote:

I can't help but to think that our increasing ability to manipulate
individual atoms will offer significant improvements in all
manufacturing processes.

You watch too much Star Trek. We can only manipulate individual atoms
on an extremely small scale. Manipulating atoms on the scale of
something like a camera lens is not possible now or in the immediate
future. Have you got any idea how many atoms there are in a single
lens element, let alone an entire assembly?

But, if you and others wish to believe that it is impossible to offer a
waterproof, digital camera with a good 10x zoom,

It's possible. But not for less than $500. And as Brian points out,
there's no market for such a camera. Take a look at the market for
waterproof film cameras: Nikonos, Sealife, Sea&Sea, a few others
that are dive cameras and Minolta and a couple of others that are
snorkling cameras. Pentax and a couple of other water resistant
cameras and a pocketful of cheap throw-away cameras. None with a
serious zoom lens. Only the Nikonos is a "serious" camera and
when it was made, it was around $500 for the body alone and AFAIK,
only fixed length lenses were available.

Folks that needed something fancier than those cameras opted for
underwater housings to protect a conventional camera - an option
you've rejected.

I cannot stop you - I simply won't believe you.

Believe what you want. But some of us keep our feet on the ground.

Mike

Michael Daly wrote:

On 6-May-2004, (Eric) wrote:

I can't help but to think that our increasing ability to manipulate
individual atoms will offer significant improvements in all
manufacturing processes.

You watch too much Star Trek.

Indeed I do.

We can only manipulate individual atoms on an extremely small scale.
Manipulating atoms on the scale of something like a camera lens is not
possible now or in the immediate future.

I will agree, but with the caveat that I am not familiar with what is
happening behind all of the tightly closed doors where such research is
going on.

Have you got any idea how many atoms there are in a single
lens element, let alone an entire assembly?

Yep. Doesn't concern me.

I am willing to wait until the camera I want to purchase is made
available to me. I have no desire to own a camera just for the sake of
owning a camera. If this means I won't be able to take pictures, that's
fine...I have gotten along without one up to now and will continue to do
so.

I am curious, why are people so invested in my immediate purchase of a
waterproof, digital camera?

I have made it perfectly clear what I am willing to purchase and that I
will not settle for anything less then what I am looking for...yet,
people keep on telling me that I am wrong and I should follow their
advice instead.

You're welcome to continue to tell me I am wrong, but keep in mind that
one nifty definition of insanity is to perform the same action over and
over and over again, expecting a different result.