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Michael Daly October 22nd 03 06:39 AM

Self rescure idea
 
On 22-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote:

CRCA has a sticker, Kayaking and Canoeing is for everyone. OK that is
a bit too optemistic but why not try.


I don't have a problem with people wanting to try, but everyone has to
realize that there are limits to their abilities and at some point it
becomes more of a risk than a hobby. I don't like saying what I did,
and I've taken flack for it in the past.

The example of the woman who lost weight is a good one. As you say,
she'll reap benefits beyond just kayaking as a result. If the initial
contact with kayaking encourages someone to lose weight/add strength/
get in shape/whatever and achieve a level of competence, then they
get more than just kayaking.

I don't know why folks take the attitude that everyone has some kind
of right to paddle regardless of physical ability or condition. For
example, in scuba diving, you aren't guaranteed a license - you can
flunk a course and be denied (except by unscrupulous operators).
When I got my license, one woman was tossed out of the course on the
first night because she simply couldn't do the most basic physical
tests. She was upset, but it was for her own good.

I'd rather send them away than see them in a body bag.

Mike

Mary Malmros October 22nd 03 01:05 PM

Self rescure idea
 
"Michael Daly" writes:

On 22-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote:

CRCA has a sticker, Kayaking and Canoeing is for everyone. OK that is
a bit too optemistic but why not try.


I don't have a problem with people wanting to try, but everyone has to
realize that there are limits to their abilities and at some point it
becomes more of a risk than a hobby. I don't like saying what I did,
and I've taken flack for it in the past.


Well, there's also a difference between how fit/skilled/whatever you
need to be to kayak, and how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to
kayak solo. I don't think needing a stirrup should keep someone out
of kayaking as such, but if you do, you should recognize that your
limited ability to self-rescue creates some additional risk for you,
and (if you are sensible) restricts where you can paddle, and when,
and with whom.

[snip]
I don't know why folks take the attitude that everyone has some kind
of right to paddle regardless of physical ability or condition. For
example, in scuba diving, you aren't guaranteed a license - you can
flunk a course and be denied (except by unscrupulous operators).


And in kayaking, you don't NEED a license...so, yes, everybody DOES
have "some kind of right to paddle". A license is a legal
requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; it's
not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence
issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown.

[snip]
I'd rather send them away than see them in a body bag.


Appropriate, but in any given situation, you may have a lot more
choices than just those two.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros

Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Michael Daly October 22nd 03 05:19 PM

Self rescure idea
 
On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

A license is a legal
requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport;


A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is
maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including
retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license
if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No
one can prosecute you.

it's
not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence
issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown.


No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that
have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant
gratification just because they think something's cool.

If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the
attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us.
If idiots put _me_ at risk, it interferes with my pursuit of
life, liberty and happiness (as Americans would put it) and
I greatly object to that.

Mike

Mary Malmros October 24th 03 04:09 AM

Self rescure idea
 
"Michael Daly" writes:

On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

A license is a legal
requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport;


A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is
maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including
retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license
if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No
one can prosecute you.


There you go! You got a divine right to scuba.

it's
not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence
issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown.


No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that
have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant
gratification just because they think something's cool.


And it's all about guts, hmmmm? And nobody does anything like this
in kayaking? My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to
anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to
specifically initial statements that they have various skills.
Somehow, I don't think this is atypical. I doubt you'll find a
whitewater outfitter who'll rent a hardshell boat to anyone with a
wallet and a pulse who walks through the door.

If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the
attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us.


I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a
convincing argument to support it...merely emotional rants about
lawyers and litigious society and so on. Show me a reasonably
parallel situation where similar events have caused "the
politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with
the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be
somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he
can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we
know it. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking
within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of
insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. I have yet
to hear of any talk from any politicians anywhere who are deploring
the inherent dangers of kayaking and seeking to save paddlers from
themselves, and somehow I don't think it's gonna happen.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Michael Daly October 24th 03 05:49 AM

Self rescure idea
 
On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

There you go! You got a divine right to scuba.


Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would
sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist
haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that
it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's
no equivalent in paddling.

My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to
anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to
specifically initial statements that they have various skills.


Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who
walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down.
While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places
to buy gear without restriction.

I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a
convincing argument to support it


After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian
Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up
controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been
largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet. If she wasn't
in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry
further.

Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope
at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training,
question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few
uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a
throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be
a good idea and imposed it.

Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking
within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of
insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment.


Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with
lots of guts.

Mike

Brian Nystrom October 24th 03 12:48 PM

Self rescure idea
 


Mary Malmros wrote:

Show me a reasonably
parallel situation where similar events have caused "the
politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with
the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be
somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he
can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we
know it.

How soon they forget...

It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt
at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised
as a safety measure. It would have severely curtailed retail sales and
rentals. Maine had a similar proposal that was beaten down by an email
campaign. Politicians are chomping at the bit to get their hands into
our wallets and "safety" is one issue that the general public will bite
on, if there's any significant justification to it. Fortunately, paddler
deaths are few, but it would only take one unusually bad year and we'd
probably not be able to stem the legislative tide. We are a tiny
minority and we're certainly vulnerable to the voting public forcing
regulation on us "for our own good."

--
Regards

Brian


Mary Malmros October 24th 03 04:13 PM

Self rescure idea
 
"Michael Daly" writes:

On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

There you go! You got a divine right to scuba.


Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would
sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist
haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that
it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's
no equivalent in paddling.


Michael, I will point out for the third time that an industry
practice by consensus does NOT equal a law. You DO have the legal
right to scuba. Do you want to start talking about moral rights?
Theology debate down the hall, please.

My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to
anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to
specifically initial statements that they have various skills.


Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who
walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down.
While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places
to buy gear without restriction.


Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net?
Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I
couldn't buy without it?

I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a
convincing argument to support it


After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian
Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up
controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been
largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet.


Still no convincing argument. You are talking about a questioning
of outfitter practices related to backcountry skiing in
avalanche-prone territory, not governmental restrictions prohibiting
kayakers from taking to the water for their own good. There's no
slippery slope here, even if this particular one were sliding, which
it ain't.

If she wasn't
in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry
further.


And if the little frog had wings, he wouldn't have bumped his ass.
Do you think that perhaps there's a relationship between her
membership in a minor opposition party, and her championing of this
"cause"? Think about it.

Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope
at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training,
question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few
uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a
throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be
a good idea and imposed it.


And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted.

Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking
within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of
insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment.


Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with
lots of guts.


Look, Mike, for all you know they built the boats themselves, or
borrowed them from a friend, or found them washed up on the beach,
or stole them from under someone's deck. But this brings up another
interesting point. You're opposed to the government being the nanny
and keeping us from hurting ourselves...but you want outfitters to
take on the role instead? Help me understand this because I'm
really not getting it. Regulation is regulation, and if someone's
saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if
their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks?

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Mary Malmros October 24th 03 04:16 PM

Self rescure idea
 
Brian Nystrom writes:

Mary Malmros wrote:

Show me a reasonably
parallel situation where similar events have caused "the
politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with
the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be
somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he
can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we
know it.

How soon they forget...


And how little they understand...

It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt
at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised
as a safety measure.


It was, but not in the sense that you're trying to portray it. This
bill, which has reared its ugly head before, was put forth as a
"homeland security" thing. The argument put forth was we gotta
register the kayaks so that furrin terrorists in kayaks can't land
somewhere and blow up the beach or something. This was extensively
discussed on NPMB, and the consensus was that it was 9/11 hysteria,
being used as a stalking horse for certain ricon Connecticut shore
property owners who didn't want the smelly common folk landing on
their beaches. And, of course, there's always a dummy or two in the
legislature who says, "Aha! Revenue source!" But it was never
about protecting the kayakers from themselves; it was about
protecting the rest of the world from them kayaking terrorists.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Michael Daly October 24th 03 05:13 PM

Self rescure idea
 
On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net?
Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I
couldn't buy without it?


You can buy all the gear you want, but where are you gonna get
the air in the tank?

And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted.


I know several folks who _have_ been stopped and checked. A buddy
of mine was stopped twice this summer. In Canada, marine police
and Coast Guard are making this stick. They are ticketing. YMMV

Regulation is regulation, and if someone's
saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if
their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks?


I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that
some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone
should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool.
I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to
do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's
(ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone".

There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says
"if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one".
A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger
problem.

Mike

Mary Malmros October 25th 03 12:37 AM

Self rescure idea
 

Gonna snip a bunch to get back to the main point...

"Michael Daly" writes:

On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:

[snipsters about scuba, backcountry skiing, etc...back to paddling...]
Regulation is regulation, and if someone's
saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if
their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks?


I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that
some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone
should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool.
I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to
do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's
(ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone".


Step back a few posts. We were talking about the ability to perform
a self-rescue in which the kayaker reenters the cockpit without the
aid of a strap. Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a
strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that
point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a
paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches
safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue
with a strap.

Now, several posts back, someone -- not me, perhaps you --
introduced the word "solo" into this discussion. Solo kayaking is
not kayaking, it's a subset of kayaking. When you go solo, you take
on additional risk -- and common sense and prudence dictate that
when you take on additional risk in one area, you really ought to
minimize it somewhere else, like having really bomber self-rescue
skills. Inability to perform, or difficulty in performing, an
unassisted self-rescue is a pretty good indicator that you can't
minimize the risk enough to paddle solo. So you don't paddle solo.
But that does NOT mean that you can't paddle. You can paddle in a
group, you can paddle in calm shallow water, you can restrict your
paddling to good weather, etc. The ACA says, "Paddling is for
everyone, not, "All kinds of paddling are for everyone."

There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says
"if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one".


At all? Anywhere? Under any conditions?

A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger
problem.


That bigger problem being...?

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.


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