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Self rescure idea
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Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 22-Oct-2003, (Alex McGruer) wrote: CRCA has a sticker, Kayaking and Canoeing is for everyone. OK that is a bit too optemistic but why not try. I don't have a problem with people wanting to try, but everyone has to realize that there are limits to their abilities and at some point it becomes more of a risk than a hobby. I don't like saying what I did, and I've taken flack for it in the past. Well, there's also a difference between how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak, and how fit/skilled/whatever you need to be to kayak solo. I don't think needing a stirrup should keep someone out of kayaking as such, but if you do, you should recognize that your limited ability to self-rescue creates some additional risk for you, and (if you are sensible) restricts where you can paddle, and when, and with whom. [snip] I don't know why folks take the attitude that everyone has some kind of right to paddle regardless of physical ability or condition. For example, in scuba diving, you aren't guaranteed a license - you can flunk a course and be denied (except by unscrupulous operators). And in kayaking, you don't NEED a license...so, yes, everybody DOES have "some kind of right to paddle". A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. [snip] I'd rather send them away than see them in a body bag. Appropriate, but in any given situation, you may have a lot more choices than just those two. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No one can prosecute you. it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant gratification just because they think something's cool. If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us. If idiots put _me_ at risk, it interferes with my pursuit of life, liberty and happiness (as Americans would put it) and I greatly object to that. Mike |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 22-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: A license is a legal requirement that may or may not exist for a particular sport; A scuba license has no legal status. It is a feature that is maintained on a voluntary basis by participants (including retailers) in the sport. You can dive without a license if you can find someone who will lend/rent you the kit. No one can prosecute you. There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. it's not some kind of Get Out Of Jail Free card that divine providence issues you that guarantees you'll never get a smackdown. No, but in scuba, at least it's a sign that there are folks that have the guts to say that not everyone is entitled to instant gratification just because they think something's cool. And it's all about guts, hmmmm? And nobody does anything like this in kayaking? My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Somehow, I don't think this is atypical. I doubt you'll find a whitewater outfitter who'll rent a hardshell boat to anyone with a wallet and a pulse who walks through the door. If enough idiots put themselves at risk, it'll attract the attention of the politicians and they'll lean on all of us. I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it...merely emotional rants about lawyers and litigious society and so on. Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. I have yet to hear of any talk from any politicians anywhere who are deploring the inherent dangers of kayaking and seeking to save paddlers from themselves, and somehow I don't think it's gonna happen. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's no equivalent in paddling. My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down. While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places to buy gear without restriction. I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet. If she wasn't in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry further. Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training, question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be a good idea and imposed it. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with lots of guts. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It would have severely curtailed retail sales and rentals. Maine had a similar proposal that was beaten down by an email campaign. Politicians are chomping at the bit to get their hands into our wallets and "safety" is one issue that the general public will bite on, if there's any significant justification to it. Fortunately, paddler deaths are few, but it would only take one unusually bad year and we'd probably not be able to stem the legislative tide. We are a tiny minority and we're certainly vulnerable to the voting public forcing regulation on us "for our own good." -- Regards Brian |
Self rescure idea
"Michael Daly" writes:
On 23-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: There you go! You got a divine right to scuba. Hardly. You'd have a hard time finding a dealer that would sell you air without a license unless you're in a tourist haven offshore (Cuba's a good example). The key is that it's a standard that's enforced within the industry - there's no equivalent in paddling. Michael, I will point out for the third time that an industry practice by consensus does NOT equal a law. You DO have the legal right to scuba. Do you want to start talking about moral rights? Theology debate down the hall, please. My local whitewataer outfitter won't rent a boat to anyone except if they sign a pretty long form in which they have to specifically initial statements that they have various skills. Does a retailer similarly not sell a kayak to anyone who walks in the door? Sorry, but this is where it breaks down. While some may be reluctant to rent, there are lots of places to buy gear without restriction. Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net? Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I couldn't buy without it? I've heard this assertion many times, but not once yet heard a convincing argument to support it After several teenagers were killed in an avalanche in the Canadian Rockies, a western federal politician has been ranting on setting up controls for backcountry skiing. So far, her hysterics have been largely ignored. Skiers aren't ignoring her yet. Still no convincing argument. You are talking about a questioning of outfitter practices related to backcountry skiing in avalanche-prone territory, not governmental restrictions prohibiting kayakers from taking to the water for their own good. There's no slippery slope here, even if this particular one were sliding, which it ain't. If she wasn't in a minor opposition party, her voice in government might carry further. And if the little frog had wings, he wouldn't have bumped his ass. Do you think that perhaps there's a relationship between her membership in a minor opposition party, and her championing of this "cause"? Think about it. Sea kayakers in Canada are required, by law, to carry a throw rope at all times. Most of us, even those with WW rescue training, question the need. Other than towing, I can think of very few uses for a throw rope in a sea kayak. A tow rope, maybe, but a throw rope makes a mediocre tow rope. Someone thought it would be a good idea and imposed it. And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted. Meanwhile, here in Massachusetts, two women died kayaking within the last couple of weeks, in what was quite likely a case of insufficient preparation and/or skills and/or judgment. Must have got that gear from one of those responsible dealers with lots of guts. Look, Mike, for all you know they built the boats themselves, or borrowed them from a friend, or found them washed up on the beach, or stole them from under someone's deck. But this brings up another interesting point. You're opposed to the government being the nanny and keeping us from hurting ourselves...but you want outfitters to take on the role instead? Help me understand this because I'm really not getting it. Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
Brian Nystrom writes:
Mary Malmros wrote: Show me a reasonably parallel situation where similar events have caused "the politicians" to "lean on" participants as a whole -- presuably with the effect of restricting their activity -- and I will perhaps be somewhat more inclined to believe that someone dying because he can't do a self-rescue is going to mean the end of kayaking as we know it. How soon they forget... And how little they understand... It was only a few months ago that paddlers in CT fought off an attempt at registration w/mandatory training that was being (thinly) disguised as a safety measure. It was, but not in the sense that you're trying to portray it. This bill, which has reared its ugly head before, was put forth as a "homeland security" thing. The argument put forth was we gotta register the kayaks so that furrin terrorists in kayaks can't land somewhere and blow up the beach or something. This was extensively discussed on NPMB, and the consensus was that it was 9/11 hysteria, being used as a stalking horse for certain ricon Connecticut shore property owners who didn't want the smelly common folk landing on their beaches. And, of course, there's always a dummy or two in the legislature who says, "Aha! Revenue source!" But it was never about protecting the kayakers from themselves; it was about protecting the rest of the world from them kayaking terrorists. -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
Self rescure idea
On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote:
Do you think that it's impossible to buy scuba gear off the net? Would someone check my license if I tried to do so, and tell me I couldn't buy without it? You can buy all the gear you want, but where are you gonna get the air in the tank? And kayakers blow it off, and no one gets busted. I know several folks who _have_ been stopped and checked. A buddy of mine was stopped twice this summer. In Canada, marine police and Coast Guard are making this stick. They are ticketing. YMMV Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool. I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's (ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone". There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says "if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one". A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. Mike |
Self rescure idea
Gonna snip a bunch to get back to the main point... "Michael Daly" writes: On 24-Oct-2003, Mary Malmros wrote: [snipsters about scuba, backcountry skiing, etc...back to paddling...] Regulation is regulation, and if someone's saying, "Tut tut tut, no kayaking for YOU," what do you care if their badge says The Gummint or Joe Bob's Kayaks? I never said anything about regulation of kayakers. I said that some folks in the sport have to take the attitude that not everyone should assume that paddling is for them just because it's cool. I gave the example of scuba as an industry that has the guts to do that. This in response to someone who mentioned some arganization's (ACA?) idea that "paddling is for everyone". Step back a few posts. We were talking about the ability to perform a self-rescue in which the kayaker reenters the cockpit without the aid of a strap. Now, it's not clear to me that the need to use a strap represents a huge increase in risk, but I'm not arguing that point -- I'll assume that it does, and that if you can perform a paddle float self rescue without a strap, you're bunches and bunches safer than someone who can only perform a paddle float self-rescue with a strap. Now, several posts back, someone -- not me, perhaps you -- introduced the word "solo" into this discussion. Solo kayaking is not kayaking, it's a subset of kayaking. When you go solo, you take on additional risk -- and common sense and prudence dictate that when you take on additional risk in one area, you really ought to minimize it somewhere else, like having really bomber self-rescue skills. Inability to perform, or difficulty in performing, an unassisted self-rescue is a pretty good indicator that you can't minimize the risk enough to paddle solo. So you don't paddle solo. But that does NOT mean that you can't paddle. You can paddle in a group, you can paddle in calm shallow water, you can restrict your paddling to good weather, etc. The ACA says, "Paddling is for everyone, not, "All kinds of paddling are for everyone." There's also a difference between arbitrary rules and one that says "if you can't handle a kayak regardless of training, don't use one". At all? Anywhere? Under any conditions? A stirrup is not a solution to a problem, it's a symptom of a bigger problem. That bigger problem being...? -- :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::: Mary Malmros Some days you're the windshield, Other days you're the bug. |
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