Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

Our new whitewater park just opened on Monday. Wingfield Park in
downtown Reno is on an island in the middle of the Truckee River.
They diverted all of the water into the South channel while they built
a series drops in the North Channel. They have now sent water down
the North Channel and are working on adding seven features to the
South Channel.

The North Channel has four drops with various play features. Nice
stuff. Here is a link to pictures and a short video.

http://www.rgj.com/multimedia/galler...l/2003/09/262/


Randy

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

Randy,

I'm not from the Reno area, but I often have business that takes me
there. How does one find out if the whitewater parks is open or is it
open year around? Is there a local telephone number or an Intenet
site that can give me a current status on access and water level?

Thanks,
Bobo
(Randy Hodges) wrote in message . com...
Our new whitewater park just opened on Monday. Wingfield Park in
downtown Reno is on an island in the middle of the Truckee River.
They diverted all of the water into the South channel while they built
a series drops in the North Channel. They have now sent water down
the North Channel and are working on adding seven features to the
South Channel.

The North Channel has four drops with various play features. Nice
stuff. Here is a link to pictures and a short video.

http://www.rgj.com/multimedia/galler...l/2003/09/262/


Randy

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

It's open year round. With this warm weather people have been in the water as late at 10:00 in the evening.

Bobo wrote:

Randy,

I'm not from the Reno area, but I often have business that takes me
there. How does one find out if the whitewater parks is open or is it
open year around? Is there a local telephone number or an Intenet
site that can give me a current status on access and water level?

Thanks,
Bobo
(Randy Hodges) wrote in message . com...
Our new whitewater park just opened on Monday. Wingfield Park in
downtown Reno is on an island in the middle of the Truckee River.
They diverted all of the water into the South channel while they built
a series drops in the North Channel. They have now sent water down
the North Channel and are working on adding seven features to the
South Channel.

The North Channel has four drops with various play features. Nice
stuff. Here is a link to pictures and a short video.

http://www.rgj.com/multimedia/galler...l/2003/09/262/


Randy

Stately pleasure domes
 

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man

Now we paddlers have taken to creating our own pleasure domes though
this time it is not the marvellous sex that Coleridge wrote about in his
poem but we want to alter rivers to make our own play parks.

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in. Even if it does not
go that far will it get to the stage where river runs will be altered to
make sure the gradient drop on the run is used efficiently and the drops
are bundled together to make descent play waves rather than waste the
gradient on riffles and gravel bars and holes are made safe so as not
recirculate the unfortunate swimmer undercuts and syphons will be
blasted out to 'improve' runs. Tidy up nature she got it wrong (and make
sure the car parks at the put in and take out big enough).

There was I time when as a paddler you could have a superior attitude to
the sierra club members in that we did not leave footprints when we took
the photos!

Here's the poem just because it is so good!

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
So twice five miles of fertile ground
With walls and towers were girdled round :
And there were gardens bright with sinuous rills,
Where blossomed many an incense-bearing tree ;
And here were forests ancient as the hills,
Enfolding sunny spots of greenery.
But oh ! that deep romantic chasm which slanted
Down the green hill athwart a cedarn cover !
A savage place ! as holy and enchanted
As e'er beneath a waning moon was haunted
By woman wailing for her demon-lover !
And from this chasm, with ceaseless turmoil seething,
As if this earth in fast thick pants were breathing,
A mighty fountain momently was forced :
Amid whose swift half-intermitted burst
Huge fragments vaulted like rebounding hail,
Or chaffy grain beneath the thresher's flail :
And 'mid these dancing rocks at once and ever
It flung up momently the sacred river.
Five miles meandering with a mazy motion
Through wood and dale the sacred river ran,
Then reached the caverns measureless to man,
And sank in tumult to a lifeless ocean :
And 'mid this tumult Kubla heard from far
Ancestral voices prophesying war !

The shadow of the dome of pleasure
Floated midway on the waves ;
Where was heard the mingled measure
From the fountain and the caves.

It was a miracle of rare device,
A sunny pleasure-dome with caves of ice !
A damsel with a dulcimer
In a vision once I saw :
It was an Abyssinian maid,
And on her dulcimer she played,
Singing of Mount Abora.
Could I revive within me
Her symphony and song,
To such a deep delight 'twould win me,

That with music loud and long,
I would build that dome in air,
That sunny dome ! those caves of ice !
And all who heard should see them there,
And all should cry, Beware ! Beware !
His flashing eyes, his floating hair !
Weave a circle round him thrice,
And close your eyes with holy dread,
For he on honey-dew hath fed,
And drunk the milk of Paradise.

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby ) writes:

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in.

Not to mention keeping out nasty territorial attack geese and
biting-stinging insects. Where they are going is called "virtual reality",
Fantasyland for paddlers brought to you by Disney Corp., water slides for
kayaks. No birdwatching. No nature photography. Buy your photos at the
souvenir counter. Get your photo taken with a DisneyCorp certified
paddling instructor. Its paddle their way or the highway.


--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Stately pleasure domes
 

William R. Watt posted:

Dave Manby ) writes:

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in.

Not to mention keeping out nasty territorial attack geese and
biting-stinging insects. Where they are going is called "virtual reality",
Fantasyland for paddlers brought to you by Disney Corp., water slides for
kayaks. No birdwatching. No nature photography. Buy your photos at the
souvenir counter. Get your photo taken with a DisneyCorp certified
paddling instructor. Its paddle their way or the highway.
--------------------------------------------------------

Nearly every river in the continental US has been ruined, or modified (somewhat
ruined) by industry and "progress". Reclaiming a few of those waterways for the
public good is a worthy goal. A good example would be a the Milltown Dam in
Missoula MT; An obsolete and worthless dam. Could be a fine whtewater park that
would serve the public for generations. Another good site is in Minneapolis MN;
the old dam at St Anthony Falls. Don't know if these projects will ever happen,
but they'd be a hell of a lot better than what's there now. And, next time I
get through Reno, something to do besides **** away my money at the casinos.

Dennis

Stately pleasure domes
 

World ending, film at 11.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby wrote:

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in. Even if it does not
go that far will it get to the stage where river runs will be altered to
make sure the gradient drop on the run is used efficiently and the drops
are bundled together to make descent play waves rather than waste the
gradient on riffles and gravel bars and holes are made safe so as not
recirculate the unfortunate swimmer undercuts and syphons will be
blasted out to 'improve' runs. Tidy up nature she got it wrong (and make
sure the car parks at the put in and take out big enough).


Dave,

I don't totally disagree with your sentiment. Leave nature alone!
You really can't improve it. On the Other Hand, the new round of
whitewater parks, such as the one I am most familiar with in Reno
Nevada, are NOT impacting nature. They are in URBAN areas. In our
case, the river in this section had been chanelized, confined between
two vertical cement walls. A low-head dam was also removed. The
Whitewater Park isn't nature but it certianly is closer than what you
find in most urban rivers.

Another thought is that one of the effects of these parks is to
concetrate river use in a small area. The effect is, perhaps, to
lessen the impact on our wilderness runs.

Randy Hodges

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

(Bobo) wrote in message . com...
Randy,

I'm not from the Reno area, but I often have business that takes me
there. How does one find out if the whitewater parks is open or is it
open year around? Is there a local telephone number or an Intenet
site that can give me a current status on access and water level?


Bobo,

The Whitewater park is open all year long. It really isn't controlled
in any way. It is just there. Show-up whenever you want and use it.
Some people have been on it after dark.

The best flow site is probably
http://waterdata.usgs.gov/ca/nwis/uv...ter_cd =00060

That will give you the flow a dozen miles up stream. The flow at the
park will be 80-90% of that.

Randy

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

Speaking of Nevada rivers, do any know anyone who has paddled
all or parts of the Humboldt river in eastern Nevada?

Every time we drive by on the way from California to Idaho,
we make jokes about canoeing it, but I'm wondering if anybody
has actually undertaken an expedition.

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

Hi ya, looking for more info on the park. Anyone been there? Where do you
put in? Is there an outfitter nearby? Any info would be helpful. Thanks,
Kim

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

(Grnflea) wrote in message ...
Hi ya, looking for more info on the park. Anyone been there? Where do you
put in? Is there an outfitter nearby? Any info would be helpful. Thanks,
Kim

Kim,

I live in Reno and have been there twice. The park is right downtown - at
WingField Park where Arlington Avenue crosses the river. There are a lot of
free and parking meter "2 hour parking" spaces near. There is a paid
full-day lot about a block away.

There are numerous and obvious put-ins. Construction is still occuring on
the northern branch of the park so part of the access is currently blocked.
It will be all open sometime in November.

There are a couple of Kayak dealers in town. The only one I have delt with
is "Reno Mountain Sports" (http://www.renomountainsports.com/ ). I know
that they will rent equipment.

The current course has four drops with waves and holes. The people with
extremely short freestyle boats are having a blast. Those of us with older
boats are still able to surf, stern squirt, ender, etc...


Randy Hodges

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

The park is in Downtown Reno. From HWY 80 take Virginia Street south through
the downtown area. When you cross the river ( about 1/4 mile from 80look to the
right. You can't miss it. Find a place to park, get out and paddle.

Grnflea wrote:

Hi ya, looking for more info on the park. Anyone been there? Where do you
put in? Is there an outfitter nearby? Any info would be helpful. Thanks,
Kim

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby wrote:

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in. Even if it does not
go that far will it get to the stage where river runs will be altered to
make sure the gradient drop on the run is used efficiently and the drops
are bundled together to make descent play waves rather than waste the
gradient on riffles and gravel bars and holes are made safe so as not
recirculate the unfortunate swimmer undercuts and syphons will be
blasted out to 'improve' runs. Tidy up nature she got it wrong (and make
sure the car parks at the put in and take out big enough).

Although I can understand where your concern comes from, I don't see the
future that bleak. Sure, I know of several rivers that have had rapids
blasted (usually by rafting companies), and I know a bunch of artificial
slalom channels, some of which I frequent.

When it comes to the slalom channels, they are usually located in areas
where the river has been regulated extensively. Near a dam, lock or
sluice, where the gradient has been turned by man's interference into
two stretches of almost flat water. In that case, I don't see any
problems with a slalom course being put next to such a man-made river
obstacle.

As for turning dangerous rapids into a pile of rubble, I hate that
approach. There are a lot of rivers that aren't paddled regularly just
because they contain one or more really tricky spots (siphons and such).
Those rivers therefore see less paddlers, which helps to keep them
relatively nice and clean. You can paddle them if you're a good enough
paddler of if don't mind portaging quite a bit.

On the other hand, I don't have problems with small openings being cut
through strainers to create a possible way through rapids that got
clogged with trees after a recent rainfall. An example of this was
recently posted on Soulboater.com:

http://www.soulboater.com/soulboater...icle&sid= 390

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby typed:

In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure-dome decree :
Where Alph, the sacred river, ran
Through caverns measureless to man

Now we paddlers have taken to creating our own pleasure domes though
this time it is not the marvellous sex that Coleridge wrote about in his
poem but we want to alter rivers to make our own play parks.

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in.

[snip]

I have been disturbed by the trend to commercialize paddling over the
last decade. Here in North America, Eric Jackson and Coran Addison
have been at the forefront of the effort to fund paddling
"professionals", and I have never liked the concept.

Part of the reason is that they want to grow the number of boaters to
increase the market for their products. For the rest of us, this
means more crowded rivers, among other things. I am always ready to
help and encourage a newbie in the sport, but I would just as soon
limit that to those who find their own way in, not the posers who are
sucked in by an X-Games broadcast.

Last weekend I was with a party from the Winston-Salem/Greensboro area
of North Carolina on the Tuckaseegee River. We pulled out at a beach
below the best surfing spot on the river, at what I am told is the
traditional lunch and potty stop. But this weekend no one could go
into the woods to take care of personal maters, because there were
newly-posted No Trespassing signs. Seems a new owner had taken
possession in the last year. Barry Kennon, pro C-Boater. Posting his
land against paddlers. We learned the identity of the new owner from
a crew of young Kennon groupies who were out there moving rocks around
in the river bed to make the rapid more interesting so they could hang
gates (we didn't ask if Kennon intended to get permission from the
owner of the land on the opposite bank, to string cables from his
trees). They had built a significant cobble dam on river left to
channelize the flow. I wonder if Barry Kennon sports an anti-dam
sticker on his vehicle?

Something similar happened on the Nantahala River a few years ago,
when rodeo boaters rearranged Quarry Rapid to create a rodeo hole
where the entire river threads a steep narrow sluiceway ... to the
detriment of the thousands of Class II paddlers who flock to the
Nantahala every year.

What else has changed? I used to think of the Nantahala Outdoor
Center as the paddlers' Mecca. Now I think of it as Walmart On the
River, though many of the employess still are kind and generous
boaters who are helpful to any boater of any skill level. But how
'bout the acquisition of Dagger and Perception by Watermark? Dagger
and NOC were founded as labors of love by boaters. Now NOC seems to
me to be an unfeeling profit-driven enterprise, and Dagger, founded as
a canoe maker, has stopped making open canoes. I don't think they
LOST money on open-boat manufacture; the profit margin was just not
enough for them. Meanwhile, over at Perception, the real boaters have
bailed out and started Liquid Logic.

Somehow, these corporate sponsorships, bottom-line manufacturing,
big-money competitions, recruitment-oriented river festivals, all seem
to me to dragging the sport into an ugly place.

Yeh, some young friends of mine are pro rodeo boaters. Yeh, I respect
the David Browns, Bob Footes, Ken Kasdorfs who scratch out a living as
instructors and expedition guides. But I really think the volunteer
organizations like American Whitewater (preferably without corporate
entanglements), and club-based instruction and safety programs, are
the direction our sport should be taking. How old-school is that?

On the up-side, if you build a rodeo hole in an already-trashed urban
stretch of river (the rodeo dudes need convenience, eh?) it will keep
the squids all concentrated in one place where they won't trash up
pristine mountain rivers.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Stately pleasure domes
 

Great read in DEM Wildwasser Online Magazin!
Shame I'm a typical American and can't understand more than a few words!
But I was able to translate the pictures. Looks like a beautiful run made
better by interfering loggers harvesting firewood for their own use, though
I'm surprised to see that chainsaws are legal in Europe.

I too have mixed feelings about "creating" whitewater, but support it
wholeheartedly when the riverbed has already been "modified" by dams,
sluices, blasted for log runs, or other human-related needs, and its
modification creates an economic force that provides the political pressure
required to force agencies to respect good water quality in the remaining
unaltered drainage. There are so many befouled and channeled urban rivers
that would benefit extremely from this kind of attention.

Padeen

"Wilko" wrote in message
news:Ugxfb.2897$732.589184@zonnet-reader-1...
Dave Manby wrote:

Where is kayaking heading? We have got to the stage where we are
building waves specifically for freestyle events next we will have the
rapid covered to keep the rain out and the heat in. Even if it does not
go that far will it get to the stage where river runs will be altered to
make sure the gradient drop on the run is used efficiently and the drops
are bundled together to make descent play waves rather than waste the
gradient on riffles and gravel bars and holes are made safe so as not
recirculate the unfortunate swimmer undercuts and syphons will be
blasted out to 'improve' runs. Tidy up nature she got it wrong (and make
sure the car parks at the put in and take out big enough).

Although I can understand where your concern comes from, I don't see the
future that bleak. Sure, I know of several rivers that have had rapids
blasted (usually by rafting companies), and I know a bunch of artificial
slalom channels, some of which I frequent.

When it comes to the slalom channels, they are usually located in areas
where the river has been regulated extensively. Near a dam, lock or
sluice, where the gradient has been turned by man's interference into
two stretches of almost flat water. In that case, I don't see any
problems with a slalom course being put next to such a man-made river
obstacle.

As for turning dangerous rapids into a pile of rubble, I hate that
approach. There are a lot of rivers that aren't paddled regularly just
because they contain one or more really tricky spots (siphons and such).
Those rivers therefore see less paddlers, which helps to keep them
relatively nice and clean. You can paddle them if you're a good enough
paddler of if don't mind portaging quite a bit.

On the other hand, I don't have problems with small openings being cut
through strainers to create a possible way through rapids that got
clogged with trees after a recent rainfall. An example of this was
recently posted on Soulboater.com:


http://www.soulboater.com/soulboater...icle&sid= 390

Wilko

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Whitewater park in Downtown Reno Nevada
 

I just saw Scott Shipley give a presentation on whitewater parks at
the Whitewater Symposium (which was All That, btw). I was pretty
damn impressed at the sort of things they're doing, including (but
not limited to) the Reno park.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Stately pleasure domes
 

Hi Mary,

Maybe there's no exploding river population on the Deerfield (I've always
felt that the conditions in the NE would limit boaters). It's simply not
true out here. The river running population in Idaho is literally
exploding.

Lots of it is newfound boaters using kayaking as an extended vacation
vehicle-- something that has been relatively a foreign concept. But there
are also tons of new, young local boaters. TONS.

We used to have uncrowded rivers here in the Gem State. Now, if you want
solitude, you have to paddle serious Class V. And some of us don't have the
time to maintain the edge to do that stuff-- like myself.

There's a bunch of other stuff in your piece that is way off-base, but
predicated on your argument that the sport isn't growing. I just don't have
the time to rebut it all, but I can tell you taking the long view (I've been
a kayaker for 23 years), in the last five years we've seen a spurt in growth
geometrically equivalent to what I witnessed in the mid-'80s, where popular
Eastern runs went from being uncrowded to endless zoos. My first year on
the Gauley (1980) there was one other party putting in on the Upper. In
1984, the sport exploded, and something like 1400 put in. We're seeing
numbers on the Lochsa now (an incredible Class III-IV roadside run) that
reach into the high hundreds-- unheard of even five years ago. Campgrounds
up and down the river are filled with boaters, always. And there are a lot
of campgrounds.

I think urban whitewater parks are a good idea. I'm not as harsh on the
young kids as Oci-One, but concentrated park-and-play is not a bad idea,
considering the huge population entering the sport. At least, there will be
accessible toilets.

Best,

Chuck

in article , Mary Malmros at
wrote on 10/6/03 5:42 PM:

and so there IS no
exploding river population coming out of this.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Mary Malmros typed:

(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

On the up-side, if you build a rodeo hole in an already-trashed urban
stretch of river (the rodeo dudes need convenience, eh?) it will keep
the squids all concentrated in one place where they won't trash up
pristine mountain rivers.

Richard, this is really beneath you. It really, truly is. I have
always thought better of you than as someone who seizes on a few
superficial features and stereotypes an entire category of paddler
as "trash". That's the comment of a sour, bitter old curmudgeon --
not the Oci-One I know.

Heh heh. Yer figger of speech and mine have collided violently here,
evidently. By my usage I wasn't characterizing the *people* as trash,
but what they do to a river by planting themselves in one place and
becoming obstacles, rather than just passing through leaving no trace,
that I refered to as "trash"ing. Not to mention rearranging river
beds to make better playspots, though in a way this doesn't bother me
so much as it might; after all, after the next hurricane comes through
Kennon's little droogies will have to rebuild their playspot from
scratch.

In fact, the pro boaters I know are fine folks. Hell, I sent Joe
Stumpfel and Seth Chapelle $200 each to help get them to Graz for the
Worlds, and if she'd qualified for the team I'da sent Heather Chapelle
$200 too; not something I'd do for someone I don't like, and an
insight into how black-and-white this issue is not, for me.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Stately pleasure domes
 

Mary Malmros ) writes:

Now, a few people will be drawn to try the sport by those images.
But -- and this is my second point -- I strongly suspect that the
large majority of them simply cycle right through. They buy a boat
or take a class, and for a little while, they're all about being a
rad dude whitewater boater. But what you're seeing is plain ol'
custy behavior, and after they've bought the figurative t-shirt,
they'll move on to the next thing. Really. You see 'em for a
season, maybe part of a second one...then they kind of fade away.
It's a small, small number that stay with it, and so there IS no
exploding river population coming out of this.

Never underestimate the power of advertising and propaganda. If they want
white water kayaking in plastic pleasure domes to be popular they will
make it popular. Some bank will put up the money.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Stately pleasure domes
 

Mary Malmros typed

(Oci-One Kanubi) writes:

What else has changed? I used to think of the Nantahala Outdoor
Center as the paddlers' Mecca. Now I think of it as Walmart On the
River, though many of the employess still are kind and generous
boaters who are helpful to any boater of any skill level. But how
'bout the acquisition of Dagger and Perception by Watermark? Dagger
and NOC were founded as labors of love by boaters. Now NOC seems to
me to be an unfeeling profit-driven enterprise, and Dagger, founded as
a canoe maker, has stopped making open canoes. I don't think they
LOST money on open-boat manufacture; the profit margin was just not
enough for them. Meanwhile, over at Perception, the real boaters have
bailed out and started Liquid Logic.

Let's be honest, Richard. ANY business is a profit-driven
enterprise. It has to make some profit in order to survive. If
pursuit of profit per se makes a company soulless, then a lot of us
are going to hell.

Let's be more honest, Mary. Small cottage industries that are founded
for love of the product can persist indefinitely providing their
founders with a marginal profit. Large businesses that care nothing
for the product and the customers can persist only so long as they
show their stockholders a competitive return on investment.

The founders of Dagger, and many of the employees, were probably
pretty well content to make a middle-class living, and were willing to
make canoes which brought them a 4%[1] return as well as kayaks that
brought a 11.5%[1] return, because they loved making canoes and loved
having some of the best canoes on the market. Then Watermark offered
big bucks to buy them out. I don't blame the owners for selling, but
I am sorry they did. Now that Watermark has to answer to offshore
investors, they had to cut the 4%[1] products from their inventory,
because those investors just don't care; they have no personal pride
invested in the production of a good whitewater canoe.

Yes, pursuit of profit for pure profit's sake DOES make a company
soulless, and a lot of us ARE going to hell. It is the need to show
shareholders a short-term profit that has so many American companies
turning out shoddy products and making bad business decisions, cooking
the books, shutting down less-profitable but still-viable divisions,
buying a President to avoid environmental regulation and taxes, and
all the corporate malfeasance that yer reading about in yer morning
paper. Profit is necessary in a capitalist system[2], and capitalism
is important -- possibly necessary -- as a strategy for getting the
most creativity and effort from people. But profit tied to
pride-in-workmanship or pride-in-product has far more social value
than pure profit for its own sake.

[1] I'm just making these numbers up; the only thing I know for sure
is that the margin on kayaks is greater than the margin on canoes.

[2] It is arguable whether we are the wealthiest nation in the world
as a result of barely-fettered capitalism, or as a result of the
coincidental juxtaposition, several hundred years ago, of a literate
near-industrial population with a vast array of thitherto unexploited
resources.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Stately pleasure domes
 

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

Last weekend I was with a party from the Winston-Salem/Greensboro area
of North Carolina on the Tuckaseegee River. We pulled out at a beach
below the best surfing spot on the river, at what I am told is the
traditional lunch and potty stop. But this weekend no one could go
into the woods to take care of personal maters, because there were
newly-posted No Trespassing signs. Seems a new owner had taken
possession in the last year. Barry Kennon, pro C-Boater. Posting his
land against paddlers. We learned the identity of the new owner from
a crew of young Kennon groupies who were out there moving rocks around
in the river bed to make the rapid more interesting so they could hang
gates (we didn't ask if Kennon intended to get permission from the
owner of the land on the opposite bank, to string cables from his
trees). They had built a significant cobble dam on river left to
channelize the flow. I wonder if Barry Kennon sports an anti-dam
sticker on his vehicle?

Hypocrisy has been in plentiful supply of late, but this deserves
an award, e.g. the Nobel Hypocrisy Prize.

Which section of the Tuckaseegee was this, Oci-One?

Tuckasegee, East Fork Bonas Defeat Gorge V+
Tuckasegee, Section Above Tanasee Creek Reservoir III-V
Tuckasegee, Section Cedar Cliff Reservior to Cullowhee I-II(III)
Tuckasegee, Section Dillsboro to Rt. 1392 II(III)
Tuckasegee, Section Whittier to Bryson City I-III
Tuckasegee, West Fork Thorpe Dam to Tuckasegee River III-IV+(V)

Stately pleasure domes
 

Bill Tuthill typed:

Oci-One Kanubi wrote:

[snip]

Which section of the Tuckaseegee was this, Oci-One?

Tuckasegee, East Fork Bonas Defeat Gorge V+
Tuckasegee, Section Above Tanasee Creek Reservoir III-V
Tuckasegee, Section Cedar Cliff Reservior to Cullowhee I-II(III)
Tuckasegee, Section Dillsboro to Rt. 1392 II(III)
Tuckasegee, Section Whittier to Bryson City I-III
Tuckasegee, West Fork Thorpe Dam to Tuckasegee River III-IV+(V)

Tuckasegee, Section Dillsboro to Rt. 1392 II(III) ... NOT
(I'd call it a Class I-II)

Stately pleasure domes
 

Stately pleasure domes
 

gee, that was a little nasty.

pete


Maybe you should stick to statements about paddling around lakes in
a sponson-equipped sailboat, Willster.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Mary Malmros typed:

Maybe you should stick to statements about paddling around lakes in
a sponson-equipped sailboat, Willster.

"peteg" typed

gee, that was a little nasty.

But so well-earned!


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Stately pleasure domes
 

What's wrong with stately pleasure domes for kayaking. Those folks in Las
Vegas don't get wet often enough. Nobody else needs them.

And it ain't kayaking anyway. Addicted kayakers sleep in wet tents in the
winter rains. Standing around an evening campfire in raincoats in the
drizzle. And for a few balmy summer months in farmers' pastures (Hey! Not
there! That's a cow patty!). Waking up in the morning with a cow sniffing
curiously at your face.
Anyone think I'm kidding?

John Adams

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
om...
Mary Malmros typed:

Maybe you should stick to statements about paddling around lakes in
a sponson-equipped sailboat, Willster.

"peteg" typed

gee, that was a little nasty.

But so well-earned!


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley, Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net 1-301-775-0471
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll.
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu 1-336-713-5077
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters.
================================================== ====================

Stately pleasure domes
 

"peteg" writes:

gee, that was a little nasty.

Hie thee to dejanews, and then come back and tell me if you still
feel that way.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Yep, I still feel that way. Irregardless of recent history, he contributed a
rational post to the discussion here. Nothing wrong with that.

pete

"Mary Malmros" wrote in message
...
"peteg" writes:

gee, that was a little nasty.

Hie thee to dejanews, and then come back and tell me if you still
feel that way.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

On 8-Oct-2003, "peteg" wrote:

he contributed a
rational post to the discussion here. Nothing wrong with that.

He doesn't know the difference between flotation bags and
sponsons and doesn't know what a Pungo is (DAGS), but feels
free to answer anyway. Rational posting?

Mike

Stately pleasure domes
 

If you were paying attention I was refering to his rational contribution to
the discussion about artificial whitewater parks not the endless discussion
about sponsons. One way to promote change is to provide positive
reinforcement when someone acts civil. Just because I thought his stubborn
and irrational approach to discussing sponsons was a pain in the ass doesn't
mean I think the guy should be black-listed if he is willing to post
rational discussion about other topics.

pete

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
able.rogers.com...
On 8-Oct-2003, "peteg" wrote:

he contributed a
rational post to the discussion here. Nothing wrong with that.

He doesn't know the difference between flotation bags and
sponsons and doesn't know what a Pungo is (DAGS), but feels
free to answer anyway. Rational posting?

Mike

Stately pleasure domes
 

"Michael Daly" ) writes:

He doesn't know the difference between flotation bags and
sponsons and doesn't know what a Pungo is (DAGS), but feels
free to answer anyway. Rational posting?

Mike

.... whose head is so far up his rectum he can't see when someone is
pulling his leg. Such people are a danger to themselves and others. Brain
blindness is most often a symptom of plain old simple stupidity.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Stately pleasure domes
 

Mary Malmros ) writes:

Never underestimate the power of advertising and propaganda. If they want
white water kayaking in plastic pleasure domes to be popular they will
make it popular. Some bank will put up the money.

Maybe you should stick to statements about paddling around lakes in
a sponson-equipped sailboat, Willster.

too preoccupied trying to figure out how to paddle a kayak out of the War
in Iraq simulation at Disney World
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
William R Watt National Capital FreeNet Ottawa's free community network
homepage: www.ncf.ca/~ag384/top.htm
warning: non-freenet email must have "notspam" in subject or it's returned

Stately pleasure domes
 

"padeen" wrote in message ...
Great read in DEM Wildwasser Online Magazin!
Shame I'm a typical American and can't understand more than a few words!

Sorry, I sometimes don't think about how many languages are spoken on
this newsgroup...

But I was able to translate the pictures. Looks like a beautiful run made
better by interfering loggers harvesting firewood for their own use, though
I'm surprised to see that chainsaws are legal in Europe.

Unlike some Texans, we don't have a habit of using chain saws to
create massacres... ;-)

It's a continuous class V run with four class VI spots, and it's a
little bit away from the normal easy access points, which is in part
why there were so many logs in it.

There are so many befouled and channeled urban rivers
that would benefit extremely from this kind of attention.

My point exactly!

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

Stately pleasure domes
 

Been away what been happening? !! (down the canyon 18 days and great
weather in October)

In message , Wilko
writes
"padeen" wrote in message
...
Great read in DEM Wildwasser Online Magazin!
Shame I'm a typical American and can't understand more than a few words!

Sorry, I sometimes don't think about how many languages are spoken on
this newsgroup...

But I was able to translate the pictures. Looks like a beautiful run made
better by interfering loggers harvesting firewood for their own use, though
I'm surprised to see that chainsaws are legal in Europe.

Unlike some Texans, we don't have a habit of using chain saws to
create massacres... ;-)

It's a continuous class V run with four class VI spots, and it's a
little bit away from the normal easy access points, which is in part
why there were so many logs in it.

There are so many befouled and channeled urban rivers
that would benefit extremely from this kind of attention.

My point exactly!

--
Wilko van den Bergh
Eindhoven The Netherlands Europe
Look at the possibilities, don't worry about the limitations.
http://wilko.webzone.ru/

--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby writes:

Been away what been happening? !! (down the canyon 18 days and great
weather in October)

In your pet thread? Not a thing. What's been happenin with you?

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Stately pleasure domes
 

Dave Manby wrote in message ...
Been away what been happening? !! (down the canyon 18 days and great
weather in October)

Dave,

What canyon? The Grand one on the US side of the pond? Trip report??

Riverman, didn't you post earlier this year that you were trying to
hook up on a GC trip in June/July? Any luck?

I was lucky enough to spend 19 days in the Grand Canyon in June/July
and wondered how you faired (fared?)?

Lurker,
Tom

Stately pleasure domes
 

Hi Folks,

For those that need a Colorado/GC river fix, take the tour down my webpage:

http://www.wildcountry.info

All my medium- and large-format pix from my trip. If anyone wants one for
their wall, I can tell ya this-- they look absolutely spectacular at 2'x3'--
the joy of using a larger format than 35mm for photos.

Chuck

in article , Tom at
wrote on 11/5/03 11:00 AM:

I was lucky enough to spend 19 days in the Grand Canyon in June/July
and wondered how you faired (fared?)?

Lurker,
Tom

Stately pleasure domes
 

in October)

Dave,

What canyon? The Grand one on the US side of the pond? Trip report??
peepil

Here is a sort of trip report. As you will work out there was a problem
with language - we had three Americans and at least half a dozen Scots
(Hence a Burns supper either 271 days late or 94 days early) on the
trip.

Explanations if required later!

The moon. The Stars. Hundreds of planes.
Upgrade on the flight out
Hot desert on the way to lees Ferry - and Indian stalls
last supper; what were 4 extras doing there?

Lees ferry campsite
Park ranger passing Whit's old b'aid; failing Andy J's brand new one and
how long could he survive off what was in his belt? And why was Pedro
being so shy?
Hot sun

boats piled to the gunnels (with what turns out to be beer) look more
like prototypes of armoured slave galleys than rafts

Donny has look of, well won't be seeing that equipment again.
Confusion at 1st camp - what order do the buckets go in???

trying to find everything including the “bin ladens�

trying to understand what was being passed off as English stroppy,
grotty, faffiing
'Wash yir hans!"
Dehydration?
Park ranger passes himself off as 'Dept Homeland Security' and tries to
deport Andy J
House rock - 1st big rapid; and helicopter
Good food- not enough cereal, milk

can't believe that REO packed ammo cases full of glass, let alone jars
of glass chilli peppers everyday while later leaving out the two main
ingredients in diet; dessert and coffee
Phantom ranch - green and cool (at least, under the trees)

civilization, phone and poor suckers with a long hard climb out
Horn

Whit takes a bath
Darcey's cooking
Lay over and a play wave - watch the wave change; read a book, hike
Pedro's ringtail traps
Robin - crapper in chief and place man for the groover (and now we all
know why it's called a groover..)
Becky and her clean language
Dry hands and moisturizer

Granite: Andy J places very large deposit in opposition's groover. Well
done Andy!
Stars @ night (and satellites, shootin' stars, planes)
Sand everywhere
Bronwen goes flying on Upset

Bronwen gets upset while flying
Tom and his Earl Grey tea

Andy's deposit later heavily penalized because of missing tea
Dave's cocktails

Dave's thinly disguised whiskey
3 men on a tarp
rattlesnake @ Dubendorff
tarantula @ toe stub camp
Lava!

robin rolls up facing upstream in right side eddy wondering where
groover is
the Burns supper - Darr L and his flying lights

Girls take Grammy after judges discovery that Andy Watts poem was all
created with Scottish-like sounds and not actual words.
Bridget - "I've always had a little bit of Scotland inside me."
The unknown pumpkin man –who wishes to remain anon. (and subsequent
discovery of his props by the park rangers)
Surgeons disappointed that they couldn't operate on Mick's toe
Ice up to the last day--and food, does Donnie eat the leftovers? (no
answer necessary)
Should have had - ceremonial burning old clothes


--
Dave Manby
Details of the Coruh river and my book "Many Rivers To Run" at
http://www.dmanby.demon.co.uk