Brian Nystrom wrote:
How it handles on flat water is nearly irrelevant. What you need to know is
if you can handle it in rough conditions should you get caught in them. Now
is the time to find that out, not when you're in the middle of a squall or
thunderstorm. Most of CLC's designs are wide and stable, providing the
illusion of security to a new paddler, especially on flat water. They don't
handle the same when it's windy and rough. Do what you like, but I have to
state one more time that buying a tandem for solo use is a REALLY bad idea.
Do yourself a favor and ask this question on the Kayak Building Bulletin
Board and the Kayaking Technique Bulletin Board at www.kayakforum.com and
get some additional opinions.

I understand your enthusiasm to start building (my third boat is nearly
finished), but now is not the time to rush.

--
Regards

Brian


Brian,

Thanks for the advice. After 6 months I don't feel I am rushing but I
am still a bit wary of how this boat will perform solo in rougher seas.
I have discussed the issue with a few people (not too many solo tandem
drivers I've "met") and got some mixed opinions. Most people wouldn't
recommend it to me as a novice but said it isn't much worse if you plan
ahead during building and provide yourself good interior rigging for
ballast purposes in the front cockpit. I thought that was a good idea,
but I plan on testing the boats out again in the next couple weeks,
hopefully in some choppier waters. The problem with this is CLC doesn't
demo boats in rough seas. They demo the boats in protected areas, and
if the weather is too rough they cancel and reschedule the demos.
Personally, I don't blame them, but it makes it difficult to determine
how the boat will handle in different conditions.
I'm wondering what you mean by the "illusion of security". I recognize
the difference between initial and final stability, but in no way do I
think stability equates to security. That is why I have every intention
of taking some classes on boat rescue and survival before I get too
heavily involved in this project. I can of course, not substitute
classes for experience, and I appreciate your posts and helpful comments
to me on this forum. I'll do some more asking around at the kayakforum
and see what kind of response I get.

bkr

bkr wrote:

Brian Nystrom wrote:
How it handles on flat water is nearly irrelevant. What you need to know is
if you can handle it in rough conditions should you get caught in them. Now
is the time to find that out, not when you're in the middle of a squall or
thunderstorm. Most of CLC's designs are wide and stable, providing the
illusion of security to a new paddler, especially on flat water. They don't
handle the same when it's windy and rough. Do what you like, but I have to
state one more time that buying a tandem for solo use is a REALLY bad idea.
Do yourself a favor and ask this question on the Kayak Building Bulletin
Board and the Kayaking Technique Bulletin Board at www.kayakforum.com and
get some additional opinions.

I understand your enthusiasm to start building (my third boat is nearly
finished), but now is not the time to rush.

--
Regards

Brian


Brian,

Thanks for the advice. After 6 months I don't feel I am rushing but I
am still a bit wary of how this boat will perform solo in rougher seas.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you had been looking that long.

I have discussed the issue with a few people (not too many solo tandem
drivers I've "met") and got some mixed opinions. Most people wouldn't
recommend it to me as a novice but said it isn't much worse if you plan
ahead during building and provide yourself good interior rigging for
ballast purposes in the front cockpit.

Ballast would certainly help, but in order to get the boat to trim properly, you
would need ballast equivalent to the weight of another adult paddler. Admittedly,
I've never done it, but the idea of pushing around 150# or more of dead weight
doesn't sound appealing, on several levels.

I thought that was a good idea,
but I plan on testing the boats out again in the next couple weeks,
hopefully in some choppier waters. The problem with this is CLC doesn't
demo boats in rough seas. They demo the boats in protected areas, and
if the weather is too rough they cancel and reschedule the demos.
Personally, I don't blame them, but it makes it difficult to determine
how the boat will handle in different conditions.

Yeah, it's an understandable situation. Their primary concern has to be the safety
of the paddlers trying the boats.

I'm wondering what you mean by the "illusion of security". I recognize
the difference between initial and final stability, but in no way do I
think stability equates to security.

What I meant is that boats that feel very stable on flat water are not generally
the boats you want for rough conditions. Wide boats tend to follow the contours of
the water moreso than narrow boats. In beam waves, a wide boat will be harder to
keep upright, as the hull is more prone to follow the shape of the wave face. This
makes it more difficult to lean the boat into the waves and increases the
likelihood of a capsize to the downwave side. This can be exacerbated by a loose
fit between the paddler and boat, though that it a controllable to some degree by
paddling the cockpit.

That is why I have every intention
of taking some classes on boat rescue and survival before I get too
heavily involved in this project.

Good idea. I would also suggest picking up a copy of "Deep Trouble", which is a
compilation and analysis of sea kayaking accidents. It really puts the risks of sea
kayaking into perspective. I consider it a must-have for a kayaker's library.

I can of course, not substitute
classes for experience, and I appreciate your posts and helpful comments
to me on this forum. I'll do some more asking around at the kayakforum
and see what kind of response I get.

--
Regards

Brian

"Brian Nystrom" wrote in message
...

Good idea. I would also suggest picking up a copy of "Deep Trouble", which
is a
compilation and analysis of sea kayaking accidents. It really puts the
risks of sea
kayaking into perspective. I consider it a must-have for a kayaker's
library.

In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA

Seakayaker wrote:


In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA



While I agree that texts can useful tool in learning about kayaking, I'd
also say to think through the conditions you will be going out in. And,
use a little common sense. If it looks too rough, it is. That is to
say, if you are not comfortable with the conditions when you set out,
you should assume they will not improve. There is always tomorrow. I
have never taught my kids to roll... I never plan to. I never plan to
be out in conditions where it will be necessary. I've taught them how
to right and climb back in the boats All of our boats have positive
floatation and they know to get back to the boat. They also know a few
of the signals from my SCUBA days... if you are ok, tap your head, if
not, wave your arm. They know to not worry about even their most
precious possession on the boat... And, (after 30 years of not wearing
a life jacket) I have a rule that everyone on the boat must.

Knowing and "training" for the conditions you plan to see is important.
If you are driving across country, learning to drive in a NASCAR race
is going to be of little help... in the same way, if you are kayaking
across a lake, practicing white water maneuvers is not what you need.

Ed

As they say, "the best laid plans..."

Frankly, this seems to me like a rather "head in the sand" attitude. What you
"plan" to do and what actually ends up happening can be two entirely different
thngs. A classic example is summer thunderstorms. They can pop up in minutes on an
otherwise benign day and strike with tremendous violence. Offshore storms can
cause huge waves on a calm day. Wind conditions can change dramatically in a short
period of time. Boat wakes are yet another example of an uncontrollable factor.
Even using your best judgement, you will eventually find yourself in conditions
that you didn't plan for, since you cannot control your paddling environment.

Why would you intentionally not teach your kids to roll? Aside from the fact that
it would make them - and you - safer, they would probably get a kick out of it.
I'll bet they'd make a game out of learning and executing rolls. On top of that,
rolling is useful for cooling off on hot days.

Being more skilled than necessary for the conditions in not a liability, but being
less skilled than necessary certainly is.

--
Regards

Brian



Ed Edelenbos wrote:

Seakayaker wrote:


In addition to Brian's advice about "Deep Trouble", I would suggest that you
get a copy of Wayne Horodowich's video or DVD "Capsize Recovery and Rescue
Procedures". It is a great review of what you should learn in one of your
first professional courses.

Although I don't have any young children to paddle with, I have to agree
with Brian about how 2 boats would be much better. A good paddling friend
has a 12 year old daughter who has been paddling for a number of years in
her own boat. Although she doesn't roll (yet), she can wet exit and
paddlefloat re-enter in addition to doing an assisted T rescue.

Good luck,

Steve Holtzman
Southern CA



While I agree that texts can useful tool in learning about kayaking, I'd
also say to think through the conditions you will be going out in. And,
use a little common sense. If it looks too rough, it is. That is to
say, if you are not comfortable with the conditions when you set out,
you should assume they will not improve. There is always tomorrow. I
have never taught my kids to roll... I never plan to. I never plan to
be out in conditions where it will be necessary. I've taught them how
to right and climb back in the boats All of our boats have positive
floatation and they know to get back to the boat. They also know a few
of the signals from my SCUBA days... if you are ok, tap your head, if
not, wave your arm. They know to not worry about even their most
precious possession on the boat... And, (after 30 years of not wearing
a life jacket) I have a rule that everyone on the boat must.

Knowing and "training" for the conditions you plan to see is important.
If you are driving across country, learning to drive in a NASCAR race
is going to be of little help... in the same way, if you are kayaking
across a lake, practicing white water maneuvers is not what you need.

Ed

Brian Nystrom writes:

As they say, "the best laid plans..."

Frankly, this seems to me like a rather "head in the sand" attitude. What you
"plan" to do and what actually ends up happening can be two entirely different
thngs. A classic example is summer thunderstorms. They can pop up in minutes on an
otherwise benign day and strike with tremendous violence. Offshore storms can
cause huge waves on a calm day. Wind conditions can change dramatically in a short
period of time. Boat wakes are yet another example of an uncontrollable factor.
Even using your best judgement, you will eventually find yourself in conditions
that you didn't plan for, since you cannot control your paddling environment.

Why would you intentionally not teach your kids to roll? Aside from the fact that
it would make them - and you - safer, they would probably get a kick out of it.
I'll bet they'd make a game out of learning and executing rolls. On top of that,
rolling is useful for cooling off on hot days.

Being more skilled than necessary for the conditions in not a liability, but being
less skilled than necessary certainly is.

Apologies for the long quote, but Brian said it well. I've
encountered this "no need to roll so I shouldn't teach it" attitude
before, and I find it a bit puzzling. There is the IMO rather
convoluted argument that having a skill such as rolling can make you
overconfident and prone to go into risky situations...but this
doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I don't think you can quantify
the effects of attitude like this, so it is just speculation. While
we're speculating, though, it seems more likely to me that if you're
the sort of person who ignores limits and consequences, or is
oblivious to them, it doesn't really matter what skills you have or
don't have, you'll tend to go beyond whatever's safe for you.

It all comes down to the question of judgment. If your judgment is
sound, you ought to be safe, whatever your skill level is -- if only
because your judgment will keep you sitting on shore on days when a
more skilled person could safely go on the water. But no one's
judgment is 100% perfect, all the time. As Brian pointed out,
conditions can change suddenly. His example of the summer
thunderstorm is an excellent one. What's the answer: to refrain
from ever boating on hot summer days? To never venture more than a
hundred feet from shore, so that you won't "have to roll"?
Reentries don't always work either. They're a tool, just like a
roll, and the more tools you have, the better the chance that at
least one of 'em will work.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

Mary Malmros wrote:


It all comes down to the question of judgment. If your judgment is
sound, you ought to be safe, whatever your skill level is -- if only
because your judgment will keep you sitting on shore on days when a
more skilled person could safely go on the water. But no one's
judgment is 100% perfect, all the time. As Brian pointed out,
conditions can change suddenly. His example of the summer
thunderstorm is an excellent one. What's the answer: to refrain
from ever boating on hot summer days? To never venture more than a
hundred feet from shore, so that you won't "have to roll"?
Reentries don't always work either. They're a tool, just like a
roll, and the more tools you have, the better the chance that at
least one of 'em will work.


I'll still disagree with you and Brian on this...

A prudent boater will be aware of their surroundings, limitations and
abilities and act accordingly. I will never need to roll. Period. I
know my boat and it's limitations and capabilities. Ever try to roll a
Necky Gannet II? You aren't going to do it. I also know me and my
capabilities and limitations. The creek and lake where my boating is
done is no more than a mile wide. Having been out on boats for 40 of my
45 years, I can look up and see a storm coming. If you can't, you have
no business being out on a boat. I know I can get to shore. If the
storm is too close, I'm not going out. PERIOD.

It has nothing to do with more or less skilled boaters.

It boils down to what an individual wants out of the experience. If you
are interested in rolling, and fast water, and all of that... it is
what you should persue. I don't see the fascination... I never have.
I may, but I don't think I ever will. Kayaking is a leisure activity
for me. I get plenty of exercise in other aspects of my life. When the
kids are a little bigger, I'll make sure they know it is available and
if they are interested, I'll get them the appropriate training. For now
we all wear life jackets, we all know how to get in and out of the boat
and that is what we need. For anyone to assume the needs (or wants) of
another is ludicrous.

Besides, I use sponsons.

Ed