Need canoe advice.
 

I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.

Need canoe advice.
 

If you're not running whitewater, kevlar canoes are light but strong.
They're easy to portage and usually found in designs that are optimized for
tripping and lake canoeing, rather than white water. Kevlar will tolerate
rocks, but not as well as Royalex. Royalex canoes are much heavier, but more
forgiving as they repeatedly slide over rocks in rapids.

Stability and speed are not exactly connected. Tripping/lake canoes will
have a sharper/tapered bow that slices the water to help tracking and speed
versus the more rounded bow/stern of boats, usually made of royalex, for
bigger water/whitewater trips. The rounded bow stern make it easier to turn
in whitewater and make for a drier ride through big waves, but that slows
you down on flat water.

Canoes with flatter bottoms tend to have good initial stability (feels
stable when you climb in), but if tipped up on edge, as happens in
whitewater or bigger water, they have poor secondary stability and easily go
over. Canoes with a more rounded profile and tumblehomes (below the gunnels)
feel tippy at first but have tremendous secondary stability - you can tip
them on edge to the gunnels with ease and straighten them back out (with
practice!).

A prospector design (many manufacturers make it) is probably a good
compromise.

Are you paddling solo or tandem?


"CR" wrote in message
om...
I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.

Need canoe advice.
 

I have 2 touring kayaks and I'm thinking about trading them for a
canoe. I like the speed of the kayaks but they are a pain to get in
and out of and it's hard to carry anything in them. Bottom line is I
don't use them anymore. My question is what should I look for in a
canoe? I'll be canoeing in rivers and lakes in north alabama. They are
generally fairly small rivers with easy conditions. What material is
best? Also what size and shape? I'm assuming if you get a stable canoe
you will lose some speed, is that correct?

Any info is appreciated!

Chuck.



Hi, Chuck, I agree with everything Leslie has mentioned. I my case, my problems
are pretty much what yours are, hard to get out of Kayaks. I have found, in
that I solo all the time, that I needed a canoe that would help keep up with
the kayakers on day trips, After much research I opted to buy the Dagger
Sojourn (solo), it tracks very nicely, it is 30" wide, it has 1.5 rocker at the
bow and none at the stern, it is harder to turn, but for the paddling you and I
do, that is not a factor. Also another canoe which I also own for tandem
paddling/tripping is the Old Town Penobscot 16, Roylex covered, this canoe can
also be soloed easily, replace thward with third seat.

Well that's my two cents worth, go out and try these canoes or many others.


CanoeArt

"Keep a Paddle in the Water at All Times"

Need canoe advice.
 

Hi, Chuck, I forgot to mention that I solo with a double paddle, great way to
paddle in the wind and chopping waters.


CanoeArt

"Keep a Paddle in the Water at All Times"

Need canoe advice.
 

Why don't you rent a few canoes, and see what you like.
The price sounds good on the discovery, but they are a little heavy.
Paddle it, or one like it. It's probably a real good general purpose
boat.
I consider the discover on the bottom end of quality boats, avoid
Coleman at all costs. You can always get most of your money back out
of the discovery, if you become an "enthusiast" and want to upgrade.
Oldtown also has higher end boats, as do We-No-Nah, Mad River, Dagger,
Bell, etc. For rivers I prefer a boat with a little rocker. You trade
awat some tracking for manuverability. Again, paddeling several
designs is the best way to determine what you like and don't.

Another approach is to join a canoe club. You will run into a vast
selection of boats, and many folks will let you try their boats.
A comment was made about tunblehome, adding to stability. Sorry, no.
TH subtracts from terminal stability, but makes it easier to reach the
water with the paddle. Again a tradeoff.

Dan


On 6 Aug 2003 07:48:37 -0700, (CR) wrote:

"Leslie" wrote in message ...

I just called a rental place that sells used Old Town Discovery 169s
for $475. Is that a good canoe, good price (assuming they are in good
shape)?

Colorado Springs, CO
My advice may be worth what you paid for it.

Need canoe advice.
 

longer canoes are faster. it has to do with the way water flows around a
hull. but they are also heavier. narrower canoes are faster too but more
tippy. racing canoes are only about 8" wide on the waterline and when the
racers aren't moving they have to brace with their paddles to keep from
falling over. its all about tradeoffs. expect the canoe to weight more
than one of your solo kayaks. will the wife help carry the canoe as well
as help paddle it? :)

I don't like the kevlar canoes because they put a lot of big foam core
ribs in them close together and it wrecks my knees when I try to find a
spot to kneel comfortably. They have to do that becuase they use a skin so
thin it needs lots of reinforcing. a few ribs spaced a couple feet apart
in non-kevlar canoes aren't a problem for me. I also find sand and grit
painfull on the knees in really smooth bottom boats. You need a pad of
some sort to kneel on, or maybe a piar of knee pads like skate boarders
wear.

You might not enjoy sharing a canoe, or as some people say, "paddle
tandem, sleep solo". If you find the quiet broken by animated disputes you
might want to go back to kayaks but more open ones with cockpits easier to
get in and out of. On kayaks with big cockpits you have can carry stuff in
the cockpit like a knapsack or "dry bags" which I beleive are rubberized
nylon bags kayakers put things in to keep them relatively dry. Sit on top
kayaks would be the easiest to get in and out of but the one's I've tried
don't have a dry place to carry stuff. Canoes don't offer any more
protection from the sun and wind than sit on top kayaks do.

good luck


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Need canoe advice.
 

On 6-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:

longer canoes are faster.

Self taught in canoe performance too? Here's a _free_ lesson and it's not from a
professional:

(from a previous post on r.b.p.t)

This statement about length is not completely true. The longer kayak/canoe will have a
greater wetted surface than the smaller for the same displacement. Hence, it will have
_more_ resistance at low speeds than the smaller one. If you take a person who is
inherently slow and put them in a longer kayak/canoe, they will likely slow even more.

If you take two kayaks/canoes and plot their speed vs resistance curves, you'll see that the
longer one will have its sharp rise in resistance occur at a higher speed than the shorter.
However, the shorter one's resistance at low speeds will be below the longer one's. If
you routinely paddle at a speed below where the two kayaks'/canoes' curves cross, you should
use the shorter. Otherwise, get the longer. (this data is published with kayak reviews
in Sea Kayaker).

Another way to look at it - for every paddling speed and displacement, there is an
optimal length of kayak/canoe. Shorter or longer than this will take more effort at that
speed.

Longer kayaks/canoes have a higher potential speed, but you have to work for it. Only when
you are comparing powerful paddlers who always go fast is the length statement above true.

Mike

Need canoe advice.
 

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
Longer kayaks/canoes have a higher potential speed, but you have to work for it. Only when
you are comparing powerful paddlers who always go fast is the length statement above true.

I think I get what you are saying.

Suppose a 20 foot canoe has a max hull speed of 5 knots and a 16
footer has a max hull speed of 3 knots. Suppose that a certain
paddling force will drive the 20 footer at 1 knot. Are you saying that
if you paddle with the same force on the 16 footer you would go faster
than 1 knot?

Need canoe advice.
 

Need canoe advice.
 

On 6-Aug-2003, (CR) wrote:

Suppose a 20 foot canoe has a max hull speed of 5 knots and a 16
footer has a max hull speed of 3 knots. Suppose that a certain
paddling force will drive the 20 footer at 1 knot. Are you saying that
if you paddle with the same force on the 16 footer you would go faster
than 1 knot?

Yes, that is the principle. Alternatively, at one knot, you will require less
force in the 16 foot.

For weaker paddlers, a short boat will allow them to poke around with less
work. The side effect is more manueverability and less weight to carry as
well. A lot of paddlers, kayak or canoe, tend to buy boats that are too
long.

The key, though, is that too short is also slow. Again, for each displacement
and target velocity, there is an optimal length (all other things being equivalent
- e.g. you have to take into account the beam of real boats). The theory doesn't
do much more than provide a guideline, since it is hard to find two different length
boats where all other things are equivalent. Paddling various boats will allow
one to find the right boat - in the sense that it will feel right. There are other
factors beyond speed of course.

The most important thing is to avoid the nonsense that long boats are automagically
faster.

Mike

Need canoe advice.
 

Chuck,

What's the diff between kevlar and fiberglass?

Kevlar is the brand name for an aramide fiber. In itself this fiber
is very strong and tough, but _only_ relatively: according to some
measurements Kevlar is 5 times stronger than steel. BUT according to
that same measurements, fiberglass is 2 times stronger than
steel...!
Using Kevlar in a canoe does help to get a few kilograms lighter and
a bit stronger boat than a canoe made from fiberglass, BUT only when
applied properly.

Problem is that Kevlar has some characteristics that have to be
dealt with, to get a stronger and lighter canoe, than the same canoe
made with mostly fiberglass. To take advantage of the better
strength of Kevlar one must use a better laminating material than
the normally used polyester. Otherwise the bond between the kevlar
and the resin will fail on impact, before the better strength of
Kevlar will be useful... Most knowledgeable canoe builders use
vinylester, and some even use epoxy as a laminating material. Other
'problem' is that using only Kevlar has proven to give problems with
impact and such. The best kevlar laminates have to be combinated
with some stiffer materials like S-glass (a much stronger version of
fiberglass) on the outside, to be really successful.

In order to get a very much lighter canoe (say 5 kg / 11lb. less
than a fiberglass one), using Kevlar alone is not good enough. You
have to combine it with lightweight core materials like foams or
balsa wood, and or carefully use carbon fibers. And then difficult
decisions have to be made regarding stiffnes, strength and
durability. Making a canoe very lightweight without losing too much
strength, means that it will be more flexible. You can make it
sufficiently rigid and very lightweight, but this will make the
canoe less strong, especially when you do not use the right core
materials and building methods, etc.! If a canoe builder is very
good, this compromise will turn out better than with a bad canoe
builder, who will make the canoe either too heavy or too flexible or
not as strong as possible! How will the canoe builder know whether a
canoe is as light as possible but still strong enough etc.?
Ultimately only the customers can tell... And if the company who
makes the canoes has many customers, and listens to them well
enough, then they should be able to produce strong enough Kevlar
boats.

If you really want a very strong canoe and don't care much about
weight, just ask the builder for an all-cloth kevlar canoe with a
layer or two of Kevlar extra in the middle of the lay-up -- it will
make the canoe as heavy as Royalex but almost as strong
and last a lot longer.

Dirk Barends

Need canoe advice.
 

For weaker paddlers, a short boat will allow them to poke around
with less work. The side effect is more manueverability and less
weight to carry as well. A lot of paddlers, kayak or canoe, tend to
buy boats that are too long.

A shorter boat does not necessarily have to be more maneuverable and
lighter. That depends on design, capacity and displacement I think.
I have experienced several shorter versions of longer boats that
certainly were less maneuverable, with the same (light) load (of
course).

Dirk Barends

Need canoe advice.
 

I'm starting to like the Penobscot 16. I think it might work for me.


There is one for sale, nicely outfitted with a couple of decent
quality padle too, on the NPMB for sale board:

http://www.npmb.com/dcforum/DCForumID2/5287.html

Need canoe advice.
 

Michael Daly wrote:
On 6-Aug-2003, (William R. Watt) wrote:


longer canoes are faster.


Self taught in canoe performance too? Here's a _free_ lesson and it's not from a
professional:

(from a previous post on r.b.p.t)

This statement about length is not completely true. The longer kayak/canoe will have a
greater wetted surface than the smaller for the same displacement. Hence, it will have
_more_ resistance at low speeds than the smaller one. If you take a person who is
inherently slow and put them in a longer kayak/canoe, they will likely slow even more.

If you take two kayaks/canoes and plot their speed vs resistance curves, you'll see that the
longer one will have its sharp rise in resistance occur at a higher speed than the shorter.
However, the shorter one's resistance at low speeds will be below the longer one's. If
you routinely paddle at a speed below where the two kayaks'/canoes' curves cross, you should
use the shorter. Otherwise, get the longer. (this data is published with kayak reviews
in Sea Kayaker).

Another seat-of-the-pants observer of canoe dynamics (me).

You are correct on this I think, however a couple of other key design
items make a lot more difference than simply length and wetted area to
how much effort it takes to move a boat thru the water:

- Shape of the hull. A number of canoes widen quickly in the bow and
stern to provide better bouyancy in waves. Great, but it makes for a
slower boat than a hull designed with a very fine entry, and more flare
above the waterline. Also, the bow shape for a composite boat is
usually a much finer entry into the water than a royalex/poly boat - you
can't make as narrow a bow on a molded boat. If it looks like a
johnboat, it will paddle like one as well.

- Depth of the water. Once you get past 10' or so, it isn't an issue.
The real difference comes when you are in 5' or less (suck water). The
faster you go in any condition, the bigger wave a given boat makes until
you get past displacement hull speed and climb over the bow wake. In
shallow water, the bow wave moves further back on the boat and the back
end sucks down and you paddle uphill. (Every boat - even freighters).
Shorter boats hit this point faster, since the wavelength is mostly a
function of the boat's length. The wave amplitude is a function of speed
and depth of the water.
Stability - it takes more effort to make a boat go if you are fighting
for balance. Boat design, load placement and seat height all affect the
center of gravity. However, the higher the seat, the better leverage
you can get paddling.
Paddle style and type. Without starting a J-stroke vs. Sit&Switch war,
any time you aren't pulling the boat up to the paddle, you are slowing
down. Any time you rudder, the boat is slowing down. Any time the boat
slows down, it takes more energy to accelerate it back to speed. Any
time the paddle face is past vertical, you are slowing the boat down.

Now all that said, it doesn't make a hill of beans if all you want is to
throw 2 packs, the dog and your son in the boat and head into Rangley or
the BWCA for a week's fishing and you really don't care about getting
there fast or working hard. It's all OK. *Pick a boat you really like
to paddle and feel comfortable with.* That's the best boat for you.

BTW, if I could only have one 'all around' boat, it would probably be a
Penobscot 16. As close as I've paddled to doing it all reasonably well
- in fact, I just sold our older 16 (and bought a MinnIIG).

Marsh Jones
Minneapolis

Need canoe advice.
 

This is a pretty wide subject... but some basics: There are one man canoes
out there faster than your kayaks, but they don't carry gear well etc For
solo, a 15' is good for flat water. The longer, usually the faster, but
also heavier. The more blunt the ends, the slower, ( narrow ends cut water a
bit better). If you have to travel 10 miles with camping gear then a light
fiberglass is good. Are you out for cardio workout? of wanting to go
fishing? Plastic is durable, glass is usually more high tech.